Kneecap

[The_Fish]

3 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Let’s put it a different way, if Hamas were the most evil organisation in the world, it still wouldn’t justify the atrocities Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians to wipe the out.

 

Or in your opinion, does it?

 

No, it doesn't. But their abhorrent views and behaviour means I can never be pro-Palestine, just as I'll never be Pro-Israel. 

 

Believing that Palestine is some haven of peace, if it wasn't for Israel is something I struggle to comprehend. They have kids dancing at the coffins of Israeli children. 

 

I believe that Israel has the military capability to end all life in Gaza and some of those in Government would like to do so, but that the majority of people there want to live in peace. I think if Hamas had the capability to end all life in Israel, we'd have a f**kload of dead Jews. 

 

There is no war of good vs evil, the oppressor vs the oppressed.  

[Nicklord]

1 minute ago, TheDayman said:

Let’s put it a different way, if Hamas were the most evil organisation in the world, it still wouldn’t justify the atrocities Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians to wipe the out.

 

Or in your opinion, does it?

It's not about justifying what Israel is doing. Nobody is saying Israel is a good guy here, at least I didn't see. It's about the number of people like you who defend or even support Hamas/Hezbollah just because, at this very moment, they're killing fewer people than Israel.

 

Supporting those groups who openly have their agenda to kill everyone in Israel because they're descendants of monkeys and pigs can't be seen as supporting the good guys. 

 

Supporting people in Palestine to achieve and live normal lives doesn't mean we should support those groups.

[TheDayman]

3 minutes ago, The_Fish said:

 

No, it doesn't. But their abhorrent views and behaviour means I can never be pro-Palestine, just as I'll never be Pro-Israel. 

 

Believing that Palestine is some haven of peace, if it wasn't for Israel is something I struggle to comprehend. They have kids dancing at the coffins of Israeli children. 

 

I believe that Israel has the military capability to end all life in Gaza and some of those in Government would like to do so, but that the majority of people there want to live in peace. I think if Hamas had the capability to end all life in Israel, we'd have a f**kload of dead Jews. 

 

There is no war of good vs evil, the oppressor vs the oppressed.  

It appears that you’re confusing being pro-Hamas and pro-Palestine, they’re not interchangeable.

This is a fantastic film, if you’d like some insight in to what it means to be a Palestinian living in Gaza.

 

 

[TheDayman]

5 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

It's not about justifying what Israel is doing. Nobody is saying Israel is a good guy here, at least I didn't see. It's about the number of people like you who defend or even support Hamas/Hezbollah just because, at this very moment, they're killing fewer people than Israel.

 

Supporting those groups who openly have their agenda to kill everyone in Israel because they're descendants of monkeys and pigs can't be seen as supporting the good guys. 

 

Supporting people in Palestine to achieve and live normal lives doesn't mean we should support those groups.

Well, in the same way that you didn’t see anyone justifying what Israel is doing, I haven’t seen anyone supporting Hamas or their ideology towards the Jewish people. To me there is a clear distinction between recognising why Hamas exists and supporting their actions. As I’ve said before, Hamas wasn’t created in a vacuum.

 

In any case, my reply was to the specific question, “If Hamas had the opportunity to kill every Jew in Israel, do you think they would do it?”

 

How that question is phrased has shades of justification to it.

[The_Fish]

4 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

In any case, my reply was to the specific question, “If Hamas had the opportunity to kill every Jew in Israel, do you think they would do it?”

 

How that question is phrased has shades of justification to it.

 

That question came from a post discussing Hamas' intentions. 

 

I think the main reason between the disparity between people dying in Gaza and Israel is due to capabilities, not intentions. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Well - both sidesing it certainly goes some way to obscuring the massive insurmountable asymmetry that exists between both parties.

[TheDayman]

11 minutes ago, The_Fish said:

 

That question came from a post discussing Hamas' intentions. 

 

I think the main reason between the disparity between people dying in Gaza and Israel is due to capabilities, not intentions. 

Fine.

 

However you might also then want to address the 228 Palestinian children that have been killed by Israeli forces and/or settlers over the last 2 years alone in the West Bank. Are you also not “pro” these Palestinians?

 

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/west-bank-nearly-half-all-child-killings-records-began-happened-last-two-years

Edited May 6, 2025 by TheDayman

[The_Fish]

3 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Fine.

 

However you might also then want to address the 228 Palestinian children that have been killed by Israeli forces and/or settlers over the last 2 years alone in the West Bank. Are you also not “pro” these Palestinians?

 

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/west-bank-nearly-half-all-child-killings-records-began-happened-last-two-years

 

What Israel is doing in the West Bank is abhorrent and pressure should be applied on them to stop further settling and killing for sure.

[TheDayman]

Just now, The_Fish said:

 

What Israel is doing in the West Bank is abhorrent and pressure should be applied on them to stop further settling and killing for sure.

Pressure has been put on them but to what avail? Just like we have international arrest warrants for Israeli officials that are being completely ignored.

 

 But that wasn’t my question… you said you could never be pro-Palestinian. Does that include the Palestinians of the West Bank?

[TheDayman]

For anyone looking for more insight into the life of a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank, here are two films I highly recommend watching:

Gaza - Trailer:

Gaza - Full Film (Rent):

5 Broken Cameras - Trailer:

5 Broken Cameras - Full Film (Free):

 

Edited May 6, 2025 by TheDayman

[The_Fish]

I will never say that I'm pro-Palestinian when that includes Hamas and Gaza. I want the Palestinians in the West Bank to live in peace and be able to have a long and prosperous life without fear of what their neighbours will do to them. Much as I do for most people in the world. 

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, The_Fish said:

I will never say that I'm pro-Palestinian when that includes Hamas and Gaza. I want the Palestinians in the West Bank to live in peace and be able to have a long and prosperous life without fear of what their neighbours will do to them. Much as I do for most people in the world. 

but not the Palestinians in Gaza?

[TheDayman]

28 minutes ago, The_Fish said:

I will never say that I'm pro-Palestinian when that includes Hamas and Gaza. I want the Palestinians in the West Bank to live in peace and be able to have a long and prosperous life without fear of what their neighbours will do to them. Much as I do for most people in the world. 

Saying “pro-Palestinian, but not Gaza” ignores that over 2 million civilians live there*, most with no say over Hamas. I also need to highlight that 50% of the population is under 18 and Hamas have been in control since 2007. Those Gazans have never had a say in who rules over them. 

Being pro-Palestinian means caring about all Palestinians, including innocent Gazans, especially when they’re bearing the brunt of collective punishment.

Surely you can condemn Hamas and still oppose the suffering of the innocent people?

*sadly, who knows the figure now...

Edited May 6, 2025 by TheDayman

[Little Andy]

I’ve been observing this chat for weeks, and it seems to be increasingly meeting in the middle where my views sit. I believe the morale stance is not to see this as ‘Israel vs Palestine’, but as ‘The Israeli Government and Hamas vs all Palestinians and Israelis who want peace and freedom for all’.

For anyone who attended last Glastonbury’s Left Field ‘Israel Palestine: Hope and Solidarity’ debate, I believe this is also where most of the panel sit.

 

This is also why, personally, I’m yet to be convinced my views align with Kneecap, for even if the ‘Up Hamas’ comment wasn’t to be taken seriously, it doesn't align with my views (even if it's a joke). Not simply because of Hamas' attacks on innocent Israelis, but also because Hamas torture and murder Palestinians who protest against them (just look up what they've reportedly done this week). Although I do appreciate Kneecap's recent anti-Hamas clarification.

For anyone who still uses Twitter/X, here’s just a fraction of the Palestinian and Israeli voices who I believe align with this pro-peace and anti-Hamas/ anti-Israeli Government stance ...
 

John Aziz - https://x.com/aziz0nomics

Alon-Lee Green = https://x.com/AlonLeeGreen

Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib - https://x.com/afalkhatib

Standing Together - https://x.com/UK_FOST

Hamza - https://x.com/HowidyHamza

Peace Now - https://x.com/peacenowisrael

[Ben7amin_]

40 minutes ago, The_Fish said:

I will never say that I'm pro-Palestinian when that includes Hamas and Gaza. I want the Palestinians in the West Bank to live in peace and be able to have a long and prosperous life without fear of what their neighbours will do to them. Much as I do for most people in the world. 

 

Assuming you are a UK citizen? And one who is not in Government.

 

Do you as a citizen take responsibility for the actions of the government. 

 

Did you take away winter fuel payments, did you mismanage the NHS into crisis, did you put Brexit on the table and have no  real plan for it happening. 

 

If you are not stepping up and personally taking responsibility fir the potentially sh*t decisions of the leaders of your country (regardless of if you voted for them or not) 

 

Then perhaps you should not be holding the people of Palastine responsible for theirs 

 

 

 

 

[The_Fish]

23 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Saying “pro-Palestinian, but not Gaza” ignores that over 2 million civilians live there*, most with no say over Hamas. I also need to highlight that 50% of the population is under 18 and Hamas have been in control since 2007. Those Gazans have never had a say in who rules over them. 

Being pro-Palestinian means caring about all Palestinians, including innocent Gazans, especially when they’re bearing the brunt of collective punishment.

Surely you can condemn Hamas and still oppose the suffering of the innocent people?

*sadly, who knows the figure now...

 

All Palestinians include Hamas.

 

I am very much for the young women in Iran protesting against their Government, I wouldn't say I'm pro-Iran

 

I am very much hoping the innocent Russians who have done no wrong whilst their leaders have decided to invade Ukraine are ok, but I wouldn't say I'm pro-Russia.

[TheDayman]

8 minutes ago, The_Fish said:

 

All Palestinians include Hamas.

 

I am very much for the young women in Iran protesting against their Government, I wouldn't say I'm pro-Iran

 

I am very much hoping the innocent Russians who have done no wrong whilst their leaders have decided to invade Ukraine are ok, but I wouldn't say I'm pro-Russia.

Your logic is contradicting itself. You say you support innocent Iranians and Russians, but wouldn’t call yourself pro-Iran or pro-Russia because of their governments. Yet with Palestinians, you've reversed that by saying you can’t be pro-Palestinian because of Hamas.

Either we can distinguish people from their rulers, or we can’t?

Seems to me you're being quite selective with your empathy 🤷‍♂️

[TheDayman]

25 minutes ago, Little Andy said:

This is also why, personally, I’m yet to be convinced my views align with Kneecap, for even if the ‘Up Hamas’ comment wasn’t to be taken seriously, it doesn't align with my views (even if it's a joke). Not simply because of Hamas' attacks on innocent Israelis, but also because Hamas torture and murder Palestinians who protest against them (just look up what they've reportedly done this week). Although I do appreciate Kneecap's recent anti-Hamas clarification.

I've also called out Kneecap - what they did was stupid.

However, while we may not agree with the "how", what can't be denied is that it's prompted productive dialogue across the globe.

Far more so than the chants of "Free Palestine" have to date, it feels.

[TheDayman]

3 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

I've also called out Kneecap - what they did was stupid.

However, while we may not agree with the "how", what can't be denied is that it's prompted productive dialogue across the globe.

Far more so than the chants of "Free Palestine" have to date, it feels.

In fact, this now 37-page thread is the best example of it - if Kneecap hadn't said what they said, this conversation would have been lost to a few eyeballs in the politics section of the site.

It's fantastic to read that people are closely following the thread, just like yourself.

It's a good analogy for it all.

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

I've also called out Kneecap - what they did was stupid.

However, while we may not agree with the "how", what can't be denied is that it's prompted productive dialogue across the globe.

Far more so than the chants of "Free Palestine" have to date, it feels.

Across the globe?

[steviewevie]

The Guardian: "Jonny Greenwood and Israeli musician Dudu Tassa condemn ‘silencing’ after UK concerts pulled" — Bluesky

[lazyred]

2 hours ago, TheDayman said:

Let’s put it a different way, if Hamas were the most evil organisation in the world, it still wouldn’t justify the atrocities Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians to wipe the out.

 

Or in your opinion, does it?

Yet Isreal is far from the most evil oppressor in our world and you want to put context and historical perspective around rape, kidnap and murder.

Hamas war crimes on Oct 7 justify a response to recover hostages and remove Hamas. The Isreali response includes war crimes like withholding aid and killing aid workers and civilians without a military target. I condemn all these war crimes. But war is hell and innocent civilians die. Those deaths are lawful if they are proportionate to the overall aim. So it can be proportionate to bomb an apartment block if Hamas leaders are inside. It is not proportionate to bomb an apartment block without Hamas inside.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2025 by lazyred

[Physical_graffiti]

4 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Yet Isreal is far from the most evil oppressor in our world and you want to put context and historical perspective around rape, kidnap and murder.

Hamas war crimes on Oct 7 justify a response to recover hostages and remove Hamas. The Isreali response includes war crimes like withholding aid and killing aid workers and civilians without a military target. I condemn all these war crimes. But war is hell and innocent civilians die. Those deaths are lawful if they are proportionate to the overall aim. So it can be proportionate to bomb an apartment block if Hamas leaders are inside. It is not proportionate to bomb an apartment block without Hamas inside.

 

 

 

 

 

sorry but I absolutely disagree that it's proportionate to bomb an apartment block if Hamas leaders are inside. Mass murder of innocent people can't be justified.

[CaledonianGonzo]

I see.  Justifying war crimes and now this.  Strong start to a Tuesday morning.

[kaosmark2]

To be clear, again, no comments comparing any side involved in what is happening in Israel-Palestine to the Nazis will be permitted on eFestivals. Seriously. Don't Godwin's Law this topic of all topics.

Edited May 6, 2025 by kaosmark2