Kneecap

[Colorblindjames]

29 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Don't ask daft questions if you want serious answers. Maybe try phrase that one better and ill reply

Your reply was as I expected. You decided to play the man not the ball.

[Nobby's Old Boots]

32 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

So, as the push for Kneecap rolls on, do we get to "cancel" Israel, too?

I have continuously said that I'm very disappointed with what the lads said, but I find it absolutely baffling that people can't see what's really happening here. 

It's not so long ago that Sinead O'Connor bravely ripped up a photo of the Pope to a US audience in protest of the child abuse that was happening under the church's watch.

People were outraged by what she did, and subsequently, she was threatened and shamed in a consistent and coordinated attack. She lost multiple gigs and record deals. She never recovered.

Her reasoning was right, however. The true depth of what was happening in the church we would only discover years later.

Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. This is widely agreed upon by multiple aid agencies, international human rights organisations and courts.

Hamas and Hezbollah didn't appear in a vacuum, just like the IRA didn't. These lads grew up in a world that likely very few, if any, here can truly relate to. I can understand how they have found similarities and shared histories, with the people of Palestine.

What Kneecap did was wrong, in particular the single MP comment, but let's not be gaslit into believing that this was their message.

The true and original message - and the message that triggered all of this controversy before any historical videos were combed through for dirt - was "F**k Israel, Free Palestine".

This is the message that angered people and this is what led Sharon Osbourne and others in the industry to lobby for their shows to be cancelled.

I've no doubt that if the comments re: MP's, Hamas and Hezbollah had never happened, we'd still be here arguing why they should or shouldn't be cancelled.

 

 

It's almost as if the Up Hamas thing hasn't helped the cause they are fighting for at all, isn't it...

[Colorblindjames]

13 minutes ago, lazyred said:

How working class are they? One of them was a teacher. Another ran a music business whilst a student. They are in their 20s and 30's not 18 so they know what they are doing. It looks like manufactured radical chic like the Clash wearing Red Brigade / Red Army Faction t-shirts.

So standing up against genocide is just vibes now? A trendy thing to do?

 

Clearly you’ve never set foot in west Belfast. 

[steviewevie]

27 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

No it’s not. It’s very important. Do people really want a sterilised arts scene where all content has to be approved by politicians?

No, but say a far right fascist group became popular and they were selling out big venues and inciting hatred and violence to minorities but well..it's art and it's good to discuss these topics and yes there has been a rise in racist crimes but there's no actual link to these concerts/rallies....is that ok? Cause free speech? There is no totally free speech anywhere, and different countries have different laws around all this stuff. So, shouting kill MPs and Up Hamas is all very edgy, but it could actually be against the law....as it would be if someone started shouting up the nazis and kill the migrants.

[lazyred]

8 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

I'd suggest you do some research on West Belfast during the Troubles before questioning their background...

I'm aware of the Troubles. I still think they are being cynical with dog whistle guff they deny when challenged. 

[Colorblindjames]

23 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

No, but say a far right fascist group became popular and they were selling out big venues and inciting hatred and violence to minorities but well..it's art and it's good to discuss these topics and yes there has been a rise in racist crimes but there's no actual link to these concerts/rallies....is that ok? Cause free speech? There is no totally free speech anywhere, and different countries have different laws around all this stuff. So, shouting kill MPs and Up Hamas is all very edgy, but it could actually be against the law....as it would be if someone started shouting up the nazis and kill the migrants.

Who’s inciting hatred and violence here? 

[fraybentos1]

34 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

shouting kill MPs and Up Hamas

 

10 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

Who’s inciting hatred and violence here? 

 

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

Who’s inciting hatred and violence here? 

Goldie lookin chain or whatever they're called.

[TheDayman]

29 minutes ago, lazyred said:

I'm aware of the Troubles. I still think they are being cynical with dog whistle guff they deny when challenged. 

Sorry, but to question their working-class backgrounds with a rationale as you put it, "because one is a teacher and another ran a music business as a student", comes across as particularly cynical and naive to the reality of living in West Belfast during the Troubles.


 

[Skip997]

45 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

No, but say a far right fascist group became popular and they were selling out big venues and inciting hatred and violence to minorities but well..it's art and it's good to discuss these topics and yes there has been a rise in racist crimes but there's no actual link to these concerts/rallies....is that ok? Cause free speech? There is no totally free speech anywhere, and different countries have different laws around all this stuff. So, shouting kill MPs and Up Hamas is all very edgy, but it could actually be against the law....as it would be if someone started shouting up the nazis and kill the migrants.

Clearly it’s a tricky call. I’d be livid if such a scenario occurred, but aware that in order for a reasonable level of free speech to exist I have to accept the right of the evil ones. 
 

A big question is what is reasonable, which I guess depends to some extent on context and setting. Would it be reasonable, for example, for extreme right wing opinions to feature as part of a story within a play, book or film. What about comedians using such to illustrate a point and make people think and how do you tell the difference between this and it being the individuals belief. Who makes the judgment and how do we ensure the judgment isn’t politically biased. 
 

What I do know is that I don’t want the decision on what is acceptable within the arts to be made by politicians. In fact I’m not sure I want it made by anyone other than the creator. 

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Sorry, but to question their working-class backgrounds with a rationale as you put it, "because one is a teacher and another ran a music business as a student", comes across as particularly cynical and naive to the reality of living in West Belfast during the Troubles.


 

Were they actually alive during The Troubles? maybe the older one who likes to wear a balaclava was...just about.

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Clearly it’s a tricky call. I’d be livid if such a scenario occurred, but aware that in order for a reasonable level of free speech to exist I have to accept the right of the evil ones. 
 

A big question is what is reasonable, which I guess depends to some extent on context and setting. Would it be reasonable, for example, for extreme right wing opinions to feature as part of a story within a play, book or film. What about comedians using such to illustrate a point and make people think and how do you tell the difference between this and it being the individuals belief. Who makes the judgment and how do we ensure the judgment isn’t politically biased. 
 

What I do know is that I don’t want the decision on what is acceptable within the arts to be made by politicians. In fact I’m not sure I want it made by anyone other than the creator. 

Ultimately these decisions come from leaders depending where you live...could be political leaders or religious or monarchy etc. But in this country they come from politicians. And there is always some bias. 

Maybe we should have a referendum?

 

Edited April 30, 2025 by steviewevie

[Physical_graffiti]

1 hour ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

You said - "I just think we're in an insane world if we're taking anything said on stage, in song lyrics etc literally. "

 

So I guess I just don't understand this sentiment when their whole act and persona is based around the politics, which are very specifically referenced in their lyrics and on stage actions/words.

So my point is, are we only supposed to take what they say seriously when it suits us, and not when they say "Up Hamas" etc? When they're saying "Free Palestine" as an implication that we should be paying attention to and supporting their struggle, are we supposed to not take that literally? Surely you see the contradiction there.

no, you're supposed to take things seriously which people mean seriously, and don't take things seriously that they don't mean seriously. It is literally that simple. Or don't, it's up to you.

 

So "Free Palestine" - I'd say they mean that, so yeah take that as a literal opinion.

 

"Up Hamas" - they don't mean that, so don't take that as a literal opinion.

 

[steviewevie]

Maybe they mean Up Hamas but not Free Palestine?

Otherwise they wouldn't get so many clicks.

[Skip997]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Ultimately these decisions come from leaders depending where you live...could be political leaders or religious or monarchy etc. But in this country they come from politicians. And there is always some bias. 

Maybe we should have a referendum?

 

Sadly. I’m really not happy with decisions over what I can: watch, read and listen to being decided by “leaders” or just as bad the media 

[Nicklord]

  

1 hour ago, TheDayman said:

...

I've no doubt that if the comments re: MP's, Hamas and Hezbollah had never happened, we'd still be here arguing why they should or shouldn't be cancelled.

 

 

Edited so it doesn't take a whole page. But wanted to comment on this. This is just false. There are SO MANY bands and artists saying "f**k Israel, free Palestine". Not a single one had any actual issues so far as far as I know (I don't care about Twitter "cancelling") 

 

You talk a lot about context in general. A few pages back, you wrote that saying something during a performance doesn't have to be taken at face value. That's true, but I think your examples are hurting your argument. Context is also very relevant during performance.

 

When rappers talk about dead policemen, it's fairly understood it mostly means "f**k the police". It's something that many people in the USA would say, even moderates. In this case, I've never met a person who would say "Up Hamas," that's not a garbage human being. Saying "Up Hamas" is not a thing that people say to show support for the Palestinian people.

 

That's why they got into trouble - they showed support for terrorist organizations openly a few times. They're not getting into trouble now because they support Palestine. I don't know why you continue to argue that when nobody who supports Palestine got "cancelled" in the last few years.

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Sadly. I’m really not happy with decisions over what I can: watch, read and listen to being decided by “leaders” or just as bad the media 

well, we'll have to disagree. I think there is way too much freedom these days. Andrew Tate etc.

[Skip997]

5 minutes ago, Nicklord said:

  I don't know why you continue to argue that when nobody who supports Palestine got "cancelled" in the last few years.

People have been arrested while planning pro Palestinian activities i.e. for talking in private. Students are being arrested and deported in the USA for being pro Palestinian. 
 

There is a definite movement among certain “leaders” to shut down pro Palestinian and anti Israeli demonstrations and discussion. 

[Nobby's Old Boots]

22 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

no, you're supposed to take things seriously which people mean seriously, and don't take things seriously that they don't mean seriously. It is literally that simple. Or don't, it's up to you.

 

So "Free Palestine" - I'd say they mean that, so yeah take that as a literal opinion.

 

"Up Hamas" - they don't mean that, so don't take that as a literal opinion.

 

That massively come across as having the cake and eating it to be honest.

 

If they want to be seen as a serious force for political change, this sort of thing just doesn't help, and it certainly has not helped the Palestinian cause in any way, because it's given bad faith actors the chance to seize upon it and take distraction away from the real issue, which is clearly the source of frustration for a few people in this thread, and understandably so. It was clumsy beyond belief and the worst type of people have swept in to take the open goal.

[fraybentos1]

3 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

People have been arrested while planning pro Palestinian activities i.e. for talking in private.

In the UK? You're going to have to give a source for that claim 

[Physical_graffiti]

7 minutes ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

That massively come across as having the cake and eating it to be honest.

 

If they want to be seen as a serious force for political change, this sort of thing just doesn't help, and it certainly has not helped the Palestinian cause in any way, because it's given bad faith actors the chance to seize upon it and take distraction away from the real issue, which is clearly the source of frustration for a few people in this thread, and understandably so. It was clumsy beyond belief and the worst type of people have swept in to take the open goal.

I don't think I could disagree with every word of that more to be honest.

You think people being allowed to say some things they mean and say some things they don't mean and all the context and nuance that is involved in that is having your cake and eating it? That's all of us, every day. That's language, and human behaviour. Quite clearly lots of things are just not meant to be taken literally. I almost can't believe I have to explain that.

I don't think kneecap have ever claimed to be a "serious force for political change". That's always an argument to try to shut down any voice in favour of any cause - "you're not making a difference, be quiet!". To respond directly though, they have raised money at their concerts for palestinian aid, so they quite literally are making a difference

[lazyred]

1 hour ago, Colorblindjames said:

So standing up against genocide is just vibes now? A trendy thing to do?

It's clearly the trendy cause of the moment and Kneecap are using it to attract notoriety. IRA slogans only got them attention in Ireland. For international fame they had to flirt with Hamas/Hezbollah.

[TheDayman]

43 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Were they actually alive during The Troubles? maybe the older one who likes to wear a balaclava was...just about.

The absolute hypocrisy of this when the entire precedent of Israel is a +3k year old claim to land.

[Colorblindjames]

1 hour ago, fraybentos1 said:

 

 

You’re gonna have to give me some evidence that hatred was incited. All I’m seeing is a bunch of words you don’t agree with. 

[Nicklord]

13 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

People have been arrested while planning pro Palestinian activities i.e. for talking in private. Students are being arrested and deported in the USA for being pro Palestinian. 
 

There is a definite movement among certain “leaders” to shut down pro Palestinian and anti Israeli demonstrations and discussion. 

The USA is also deporting its own citizens right now because they look foreign. I think that's a completely different and broader topic.

 

I'm mostly saying that nobody from the likes of Idles, Macklemore, Kid Cudi, Coldplay, Placebo, Tom Morello, and countless others isn't getting flak for supporting Palestine. The difference between all of them and Kneecap is that Kneecap openly supports terrorists.