International Politics

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Trump says wants sorted before he comes into office...so...

 

this denied...he was partying hard in Syria apparently.

[mattiloy]

4 hours ago, lazyred said:

Here we go again. Gazan civilians have paid a heavy price but there are two sides to this. 1100 people murdered on Oct 7. More raped and injured. 251 people abducted, 98 still unaccounted for, 34 of those believed to be dead. The Hamas fighters and hostages embedded within and underneath hospitals, schools and apartment blocks. Fuel and aid hijacked and diverted to the fighters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

History will regard this for what it is- genocide. And you’ll probably be telling whichever poor sod has the displeasure to have to listen to your blitherings that you’d been calling it out all along.

[doogie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

History will regard this for what it is- genocide.

 

That's far from certain.

 

The civilian death rate has actually been a lot lower than what would be typical in this kind of urban warfare where combatants are so deeply entrenched within civilian infrastructure in such a small area.

 

So far all the ICJ have said is that it's plausible that Palestinians have rights that need to be protected.  Contrary to what a lot of the media reported, the ICJ made no indication as to whether there's any prospect of a ruling of genocide.  It will take them years to reach any kind of judgement because it's not nearly as straightforward as some people seem to think.

 

South Africa's motives for bringing the case in the first place looked highly dubious.  It looked to me like a desperate attempt to boost the ANC's popularity shortly before an election, but it didn't work because they lost their majority anyway.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, doogie said:

 

That's far from certain.

 

The civilian death rate has actually been a lot lower than what would be typical in this kind of urban warfare where combatants are so deeply entrenched within civilian infrastructure in such a small area.

 

So far all the ICJ have said is that it's plausible that Palestinians have rights that need to be protected.  Contrary to what a lot of the media reported, the ICJ made no indication as to whether there's any prospect of a ruling of genocide.  It will take them years to reach any kind of judgement because it's not nearly as straightforward as some people seem to think.

 

South Africa's motives for bringing the case in the first place looked highly dubious.  It looked to me like a desperate attempt to boost the ANC's popularity shortly before an election, but it didn't work because they lost their majority anyway.

you have to prove intent...so yes can argue that they intend to kill Hamas and there just so happens to be a bunch of civilians there too but sh*t happens...but it's stuff that some in Israeli govt have said...and then there's telling people to move to an area for sanctuary and they then bomb it...and then there's limiting what aid can get in. All adds up.

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, doogie said:

 

That's far from certain.

 

The civilian death rate has actually been a lot lower than what would be typical in this kind of urban warfare where combatants are so deeply entrenched within civilian infrastructure in such a small area.

 

So far all the ICJ have said is that it's plausible that Palestinians have rights that need to be protected.  Contrary to what a lot of the media reported, the ICJ made no indication as to whether there's any prospect of a ruling of genocide.  It will take them years to reach any kind of judgement because it's not nearly as straightforward as some people seem to think.

 

South Africa's motives for bringing the case in the first place looked highly dubious.  It looked to me like a desperate attempt to boost the ANC's popularity shortly before an election, but it didn't work because they lost their majority anyway.

If it looks like genocide and smells like genocide and its trapping a load of people in a small geographic area, not letting them leave, not letting aid in and bombing the sh*t out of them like genocide, its probably genocide.

Edited December 17, 2024 by mattiloy

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

you have to prove intent...so yes can argue that they intend to kill Hamas and there just so happens to be a bunch of civilians there too but sh*t happens...but it's stuff that some in Israeli govt have said...and then there's telling people to move to an area for sanctuary and they then bomb it...and then there's limiting what aid can get in. All adds up.

 

The actions speak for themselves but the genocidal intent is also obvious through the countless times that individuals in the israeli government making these decisions have talked about their desire to do genocide over and over again. Unsurprising given some ministers have been members in far right israeli terrorist organisations.

 

The grim truth will out when all of this is done. The sh*t we’re seeing and reading about is probably only the tip of the iceberg. It always is. Look at that jail and the mass graves they’re finding in Syria now. The paranoia and hatred that fuelled Assad is no different to that in the israeli govt.

[doogie]

35 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

If it looks like genocide and smells like genocide and its trapping a load of people in a small geographic area, not letting them leave, not letting aid in and bombing the sh*t out of them like genocide, its probably genocide.

 

I think the Jews know what actual genocide looks like, and this looks nothing like it.

 

Certain individuals may be guilty of war crimes (and some of them are thankfully dead), but that's not the same thing.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by doogie

[mattiloy]

25 minutes ago, doogie said:

 

I think the Jews know what actual genocide looks like, and this looks nothing like it.

 

Certain individuals may be guilty of war crimes (and some of them are thankfully dead), but that's not the same thing.

 

 

 

Some of those that lived through it appear to disagree with you.

 

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/06/ten-holocaust-survivors-condemn-israels-gaza-genocide/
 

As do amnesty, the un special rapporteur, numerous states, and a majority of international law and Middle East scholars surveyed.

 

Just make sure you remember this, when it finally goes to court and history confirms it as a genocide- you’ll have been here, defending a genocide, giving it the both sides treatment and downplaying it and I think you should ask yourself why that is.

The thing about human rights is that everyone has the same ones. Neither you nor anyone else gets to decide the degree to which different people have them.

[doogie]

There's a good reason why only three genocides have actually been legally recognised since 1948 (Cambodia, Rwanda, and Bosnia).  To stretch the definition, as many including the likes of Amnesty have tried to, is an affront to the victims of actual genocides in my view.

 

I'm not trying to play down the horrendousness of other conflicts.  I just think the word genocide should only be used to describe the worst types of crimes against humanity.  Otherwise it becomes meaningless.

 

Stretching the definition is also dangerous, because next time they might choose to nuke the lot of them on day one if the sanction is the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2024 by doogie

[lost]

1 hour ago, doogie said:

Cambodia

 

Now thats a genocide.

 

[steviewevie]

People do seem to relish in accusing Israel of genocide or calling it a holocaust or they're as bad as the nazis etc., but this does not mean Israel should be immune of accusations of carrying out genocide of the people of Gaza if they meet the definition...which is:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

 - Killing members of the group;
 - Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
 - Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
 - Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
 - Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

So Israel will fight this in the courts, saying they did not intend to harm civilians, collateral damage, fault of Hamas etc., and will possibly use the exception of Jewish history of persecution and the reason behind Israel existing and the atrocities of Oct 7th...but I don't think any of that will be enough, there is just too much evidence against them.

[steviewevie]

Also...the fact that back in January the ICJ ruled that it was plausible that Israel was carrying out genocide and that Israel should do everything in their power to prevent genocide against the Gazans which Israel just completely ignored will likely be a factor.

But yes it may never conclude, there have been many accusations of genocide since 48, and as doogie says only 3 have been officially recognised.

[lazyred]

13 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Just make sure you remember this, when it finally goes to court and history confirms it as a genocide- you’ll have been here, defending a genocide, giving it the both sides treatment and downplaying it and I think you should ask yourself why that is.

The both sides treatment is from the ICC who issued a warrant against the leader of Hamas for murder, rape and kidnap. 

The warrant against Netanyahu is for starvation and murder. These relate to. withholding aid and specific incidents where civilians died. They are not against Isreal's right to use force to rescue people or remove Hamas to prevent further attacks. 

Neither warrant mentions genocide. 

 

13 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The thing about human rights is that everyone has the same ones. Neither you nor anyone else gets to decide the degree to which different people have them

No one here is saying anything else. 

[lazyred]

31 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Isreal is not trying to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. 

Genocide would be intending to kill all Palestinians in Isreal and the West Bank.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Isreal is not trying to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. 

Genocide would be intending to kill all Palestinians in Isreal and the West Bank.

Not sure they can use that as an argument...not all Palestinians live in Gaza.

(plus, been plenty of atrocities in West Bank to throw in there if they want).

[lazyred]

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Not sure they can use that as an argument...not all Palestinians live in Gaza.

(plus, been plenty of atrocities in West Bank to throw in there if they want).

Atrocities yes, war crimes probably, genocide no. There is no intention to destroy all Palestinians. 

 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Atrocities yes, war crimes probably, genocide no. There is no intention to destroy all Palestinians. 

 

Doesn't have to be all to fit the definition....in whole or in part.

And anyway, the group in this definition could be Gazans.

[lazyred]

15 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Doesn't have to be all to fit the definition....in whole or in part.

And anyway, the group in this definition could be Gazans.

The definition is destroy. If Hamas hadn't attacked on Oct 7 then Isreal would have carried on with containment. If Hamas stand down and  release the hostages Isreal would act differently. The fact that ceasefire negotiations are progressing shows Isreal will accept a solution other than killing everyone. 

If you want to accuse Isreal there is plenty of stuff to choose from. Using words like Genocide and Holocaust is a deliberate way of denying Isreal's right to exist. 

 

Edited December 18, 2024 by lazyred
spelling mistakes

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, lazyred said:

The definition is destroy. If Hamas hadn't attacked on Oct 7 then Isreal would have carried on with containment. If Hamas stand down and  release the hostages Isreal would act differently. The fact that ceasefire negotiations are progressing shows Isreal will accept a solution other than killing everyone. 

If you want to accuse Isreal there is plenty of stuff to choose from. Using words like Genocide and Holocaust is a deliberate way of denying Isreal's right to exist. 

 

ok, well...take that up with the ICJ. These are all excuses or reasons that will be given by Israel for the 45k dead Gazans and destruction of most of it's infrastructure and the limiting of aid getting in..we'll see what decision they make. Maybe they'll say it's all Hamas' fault.

[steviewevie]

https://x.com/hrw/status/1869609986222968873 

 

(when copy into here says x.com doesn't allow this tweet to be embedded which is kind of interesting)

 

More here

Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza | Human Rights Watch

Edited December 19, 2024 by steviewevie

[Crazyfool01]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

https://x.com/hrw/status/1869609986222968873 

 

(when copy into here says x.com doesn't allow this tweet to be embedded which is kind of interesting)

 

More here

Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza | Human Rights Watch

Weird that … also tried to post it 😞 

[lost]

Sounds like the Trump administration is going to go after how US companies pay tax in Ireland over this israeli embassy stuff.

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

Putin just finished a 4 1/2 hour press conference. 😵

[Blisterpack]

On 12/18/2024 at 12:51 PM, steviewevie said:

ok, well...take that up with the ICJ. These are all excuses or reasons that will be given by Israel for the 45k dead Gazans and destruction of most of it's infrastructure and the limiting of aid getting in..we'll see what decision they make. Maybe they'll say it's all Hamas' fault.

This time last year there were just under 30k dead in Gaza according to Hamas. They were also saying that about 12k of those were ‘operatives’ though Israel (and the AP and Reuters tbf) were suggesting that they were understating that. Israel are suggesting the operative:civilian ratio is 1:2 whilst most observers put it closer 1:3. Either way it is close to being the lowest you will see in modern warfare and falls well short of anything even resembling genocide. Holocaust inversion is the refuge of the old deniers who were basically legislated out of expressing their vile views.