International Politics

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Blisterpack said:

I actually think it’s close. Netanyahu will not be re-elected and the rest of the Middle East is fed up of conflict. And Iran is losing influence. ‘Peace’ is a stretch but I think actual conflict will end soon. And Trump will take credit. 

yes may well be a ceasefire of sorts...but what comes after. Gaza needs to be rebuilt, who's paying for that? Big question is what comes next. Do Hamas retain control? Does Israel stay in Gaza? As for a Palestinian state, I don't know. Hamas more popular than Fatah in West Bank, who will lead Palestine? People in Israel want to expand settlements, expand Israel.  Maybe something can be done with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc..maybe some part of any Abraham accords deal under Trump. Saudi may want a deal, but a roadmap to Palestinian statehood might be part of it. 

I just think the war may end, but life will remain too sh*t and intolerable for many Palestinians.

[steviewevie]

Subject change...US govt close to shutdown over some spending bill...and apparently Musk has been throwing his significant weight behind opposing the bill.

Musk has way too much power, nationally and internationally. When Trump spoke to Zelensky Musk was with him. Musk met with Iranian ambassador recently. Musk has been talking to Putin. Musk has his eyes set on next UK election wanting to remove Starmer and help Reform.

Not sure what can be done about it, but something should be done about it. He is a global oligarch.

[steviewevie]

Enjoy. 🙂

Defining genocide: how a rift over Gaza sparked a crisis among scholars | US universities | The Guardian

[Skip997]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Enjoy. 🙂

Defining genocide: how a rift over Gaza sparked a crisis among scholars | US universities | The Guardian

“The idea that the Holocaust is unique, and Jews are unique, and Israel is unique, the exceptional status of Israel, is foundational to Holocaust and genocide studies,” said Segal, whose criticism of Israel led the University of Minnesota to withdraw an offer it had made him to lead its Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
 

And here lies the crux of the problem. 

[Looother]

20 hours ago, Skip997 said:

What a load of old nonsense. It’s clearly genocide. It was always the plan once Hamas gave them the excuse. Have you seen the pre and post bombing pictures of Rafa? Have a look and come up with an reason for such destruction 

 

Some people are completely obsessed with the use of this word. The same people who love calling Israel Nazis. Many of these same people actively celebrated an explicitly genocidal organisation committing an obvious act of genocide on 7/10/23, so can't argue that they are against genocide at all. 

 

The worst thing about it is that it's counterproductive. You end up with arguments about nomenclature that are a complete distraction from the issue. They allow people on one side of the argument to write the other side off as antisemites, and the other to write off the first as Zionist shills, when in large part neither are either.

 

Organisations like Amnesty International produce lengthy reports designed to show how what is happening in Gaza can somehow, with a little twisting, still be defined as genocide. It genuinely puzzles me. It's not as if Israel haven't done and are not currently doing terrible things in Gaza - the destruction of homes, neighbourhoods, the means of food production, access to safe water, forced and repeated relocation. This week there was this, for example: https://archive.ph/J63LD. There's enough to fight without constantly scrapping over the (ab)use of one word.

 

(I really have tried to understand why people are so absolutely indignant about using this word. According to the Gaza health ministry/Hamas, including combatants around 0.3% of the population of Gaza has been killed in the last six months (sources: this, this and, though not ideal, this), and maybe 2% since 7/10/23. This is a lot of human life, I don't want to minimise it, but it is absolutely clear that there has been no attempt to deliberately murder the people of Gaza in entirety. It is also lazy and ludicrous to blame this loss of life only on Israel. Obviously Israel being guilty of genocide would be helpful for those who argue against the existence of Israel in the first place - perhaps they're engaged in a grotesque kind of wishful thinking?)

[steviewevie]

42 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

“The idea that the Holocaust is unique, and Jews are unique, and Israel is unique, the exceptional status of Israel, is foundational to Holocaust and genocide studies,” said Segal, whose criticism of Israel led the University of Minnesota to withdraw an offer it had made him to lead its Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
 

And here lies the crux of the problem. 

Holocaust is kind of unique?

[steviewevie]

Thing with the term genocide, if Israel are found to have committed it by ICJ, then what? I mean, Israel won't like it, US will condemn it, many will celebrate it, but there wouldn't be any punishment would there? It wouldn't necessarily stop Israel?  Would kind of show the whole thing to be toothless...which is one reason they might not rule it.

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Holocaust is kind of unique?

and actually Israel is king of unique, how and why it was set up (by UN).

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, Looother said:

 

Some people are completely obsessed with the use of this word. The same people who love calling Israel Nazis. Many of these same people actively celebrated an explicitly genocidal organisation committing an obvious act of genocide on 7/10/23, so can't argue that they are against genocide at all. 

 

The worst thing about it is that it's counterproductive. You end up with arguments about nomenclature that are a complete distraction from the issue. They allow people on one side of the argument to write the other side off as antisemites, and the other to write off the first as Zionist shills, when in large part neither are either.

 

Organisations like Amnesty International produce lengthy reports designed to show how what is happening in Gaza can somehow, with a little twisting, still be defined as genocide. It genuinely puzzles me. It's not as if Israel haven't done and are not currently doing terrible things in Gaza - the destruction of homes, neighbourhoods, the means of food production, access to safe water, forced and repeated relocation. This week there was this, for example: https://archive.ph/J63LD. There's enough to fight without constantly scrapping over the (ab)use of one word.

 

(I really have tried to understand why people are so absolutely indignant about using this word. According to the Gaza health ministry/Hamas, including combatants around 0.3% of the population of Gaza has been killed in the last six months (sources: this, this and, though not ideal, this), and maybe 2% since 7/10/23. This is a lot of human life, I don't want to minimise it, but it is absolutely clear that there has been no attempt to deliberately murder the people of Gaza in entirety. It is also lazy and ludicrous to blame this loss of life only on Israel. Obviously Israel being guilty of genocide would be helpful for those who argue against the existence of Israel in the first place - perhaps they're engaged in a grotesque kind of wishful thinking?)

I think initial reason for South Africa bringing this up was to maybe make Israel stop...that is what ICJ tried to do too by asking Israel to avoid genocidal acts or whatever, but ultimately it has no teeth, especially when Israel, US and others don't recognise it and can just ignore it.

Edited December 20, 2024 by steviewevie

[Looother]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I think initial reason for South Africa bringing this up was to maybe make Israel stop...that is what ICJ tried to do too by asking Israel to avoid genocidal acts or whatever, but ultimately it has no teeth, especially when Israel, US and others don't recognise it and can just ignore it.

 

Seems like odd logic, but it's possible. It's been really counterproductive, though - the accusation was ludicrous enough that Netanyahu could spin it as proof that the world's against them, that the ICJ is broken and can be ignored, and he ends up if anything emboldened and with his position entrenched.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Looother said:

 

Seems like odd logic, but it's possible. It's been really counterproductive, though - the accusation was ludicrous enough that Netanyahu could spin it as proof that the world's against them, that the ICJ is broken and can be ignored, and he ends up if anything emboldened and with his position entrenched.

accusation was not ludicrous at all...ICJ said plausible and will continue to investigate whether what has been happening can be seen as genocide.

If same was happening to a european country I very much think people would be also shouting genocide, and something would get done about it.

Yes people like to throw the term at Israel because of their history, but that does not make them immune of the accusation. When you are bombing places where civilians live, bombing hospitals, schools and refugee camps, when you are cutting off supplies, limiting aid, creating famine...and then you listen to what various Israeli leaders have said including the president...then yes it definitely could be ruled as genocide.

 

[Skip997]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Thing with the term genocide, if Israel are found to have committed it by ICJ, then what? I mean, Israel won't like it, US will condemn it, many will celebrate it, but there wouldn't be any punishment would there? It wouldn't necessarily stop Israel?  Would kind of show the whole thing to be toothless...which is one reason they might not rule it.

Yeah nothing will happen. Nothing will be done about it 

[steviewevie]

[Skip997]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

He can get lost 

[steviewevie]

Well the US is only spending 3%...so others aren't going to go higher unless they do. 

Poland is leading the way...maybe because they know what's coming...

[steviewevie]

Grim news from Germany 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Grim news from Germany 

and of course Musk has to tweet about it

[lazyred]

17 hours ago, steviewevie said:

If same was happening to a european country I very much think people would be also shouting genocide, and something would get done about it.

In the Yugoslav civil war and the genocide in Bosnia, the Corbyn crowd backed the Serbs and argued against NATO intervention. The Dutch UN troops watched the Muslims being marched away and murdered in Srebrenica.

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

In the Yugoslav civil war and the genocide in Bosnia, the Corbyn crowd backed the Serbs and argued against NATO intervention. The Dutch UN troops watched the Muslims being marched away and murdered in Srebrenica.

ICJ ruled as genocide? NATO/UN troops were there, as opposed to just asking Israel to stop whilst continuing  to supply aid and arms?

[Neil]

On 12/18/2024 at 12:21 PM, lazyred said:

Atrocities yes, war crimes probably, genocide no. There is no intention to destroy all Palestinians. 

 

CIF THERE WAS THEY'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT IT.

[steviewevie]

Ok, last time I say this...it isn't about destroying all Palestinians...genocide definition:

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. The term is defined by the United Nations as any of the following acts: 

 

• Killing members of the group
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
• Deliberately inflicting conditions of life that will lead to the group's physical destruction
• Imposing measures to prevent births within the group
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

[Skip997]

However you look at it, whatever sympathies you have it’s genocide 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

However you look at it, whatever sympathies you have it’s genocide 

TBD

[steviewevie]

The perpetrator ...an immigrant from Saudi Arabia who has refugee status and sympathises with AfD and is islamophobic is a gift for all sides using the sad and appalling atrocity in Magdeburg for their stupid little online culture war.

 

What is definitely true is it is almost always a man who spends too much time online.

[steviewevie]

Merry Christmas