news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

23 minutes ago, Gingerfish79 said:

It's not necessarily in content of his message, it's in his delivery, in his inability to cut through with the media and the electorate. What real progress has he made? Are Labour any more trusted by ex-red wall voters than they were 2 years ago? Are people even listening to him anymore? Did they ever?

Thousands and thousands of people died over the winter unnecessarily because of mistakes Johnson made. Tory sleaze has returned. We have the most hated home secretary in my memory. Cummings. Poorer people about to disproportionally pick up the tab for the pandemic and 3 manifesto pledges broken.

And yet Labour have made no real headway and cant get Johnson on the back foot.

Many Labour members were convinced to vote for him in the leadership election because 'he would be more electable'. But its now clear that he'll never be PM, not because of policy but because nobody cares what he has to say. Labour needs somebody with energy, dynamism and a determination to be heard no matter what. I don't know who that is, though Raynor as leader and Burnham as shadow chancellor would be closest in my view. But without change I'm fearful that Labour are heading for another crushing defeat under Starmer and that could be the end of it.

I don't mean to rant and its nothing personal, I just find it so disheartening.

I feel your pain. Starmer is a bit lacking, bit boring really, lacks the x factor, and I think afraid to take too many risks. I like Raynor also, no idea whether she would make a good leader or not, but why not give it a go. I thought same with Corbyn too. Labour are screwed for many reasons though, many mistakes made over the last couple of decades, and now a lot of people don't see them as relevant..but at same time back in the late 90s/early 00s the tories were being written off for good and now look at them. Labour have got to be better at defending their record...the whole austerity was needed because of labour mismanagement of the economy and over spending thing is maddening. And brexit should have been a killer for the tories but it's ended up killing labour. I can see what Starmer is trying to do, steer away from internal labour divisions and navel gazing and actually have a vision and say and do stuff that voters would like, better wages etc. But at moment tories just look like the party that gets stuff done, whilst labour bicker. Anyway, a lot of stuff to comne over next year, furlough ending, universal credit being cut, this new NI rise, and brexit/covid supply and job issues. If things go badly for the government this winter and into next year maybe labour can make some headway, maybe....

[mattiloy]

16 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I can see what Starmer is trying to do, steer away from internal labour divisions and navel gazing and actually have a vision and say and do stuff that voters would like, better wages etc.

 

What have you been watching? To me it seems like the only thing Starmer has done is double down on this kamikazi labour civil war. He’s barely offered anything of substance by way of policy/vision.

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, Gingerfish79 said:

It's not necessarily in content of his message, it's in his delivery, in his inability to cut through with the media and the electorate. What real progress has he made? Are Labour any more trusted by ex-red wall voters than they were 2 years ago? Are people even listening to him anymore? Did they ever?

Thousands and thousands of people died over the winter unnecessarily because of mistakes Johnson made. Tory sleaze has returned. We have the most hated home secretary in my memory. Cummings. Poorer people about to disproportionally pick up the tab for the pandemic and 3 manifesto pledges broken.

And yet Labour have made no real headway and cant get Johnson on the back foot.

Many Labour members were convinced to vote for him in the leadership election because 'he would be more electable'. But its now clear that he'll never be PM, not because of policy but because nobody cares what he has to say. Labour needs somebody with energy, dynamism and a determination to be heard no matter what. I don't know who that is, though Raynor as leader and Burnham as shadow chancellor would be closest in my view. But without change I'm fearful that Labour are heading for another crushing defeat under Starmer and that could be the end of it.

I don't mean to rant and its nothing personal, I just find it so disheartening.

I feel your pain to be honest, although I am more demoralised by how Johnson and the Tories continue to get away with everything. A lot of it I feel is because Johnson is such a unique politician, if this was any other PM things might be slightly different.

You have some really good points and I do get what you mean about some of Starmers failings but I do think some progress has been made, polling does show an improvement since he took over. Saying that though Labour took their foot off the ball last Winter when they were neck and neck with the Tories and have never caught up.

I’m not sure if any Labour leader would have cut through with the media, it seems it’ll need someone special for that to happen. 
 

Ultimately Conference will be massive, if Starmer can deliver a brilliant speech which outlines what some of what a Labour government can do then it’ll hopefully make some cut through and put pressure back onto Johnson. 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

 

What have you been watching? To me it seems like the only thing Starmer has done is double down on this kamikazi labour civil war. He’s barely offered anything of substance by way of policy/vision.

he's been saying it in interviews...apparently he's been listening to voters over the summer, and thsi autumn is going to to turn labour inside out into a business friendly blairite election winning wet dream and all lefties are to be banished forever. Something like that.

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I feel your pain to be honest, although I am more demoralised by how Johnson and the Tories continue to get away with everything. A lot of it I feel is because Johnson is such a unique politician, if this was any other PM things might be slightly different.

You have some really good points and I do get what you mean about some of Starmers failings but I do think some progress has been made, polling does show an improvement since he took over. Saying that though Labour took their foot off the ball last Winter when they were neck and neck with the Tories and have never caught up.

I’m not sure if any Labour leader would have cut through with the media, it seems it’ll need someone special for that to happen. 
 

Ultimately Conference will be massive, if Starmer can deliver a brilliant speech which outlines what some of what a Labour government can do then it’ll hopefully make some cut through and put pressure back onto Johnson. 

sorry OZ but nobody takes any  notice of the party conferences they have no relevance to the public im afraid .... how long as Starmer been in office now ? I had hope for him early because he seemed to perform well at PMQS .... but clearly that has made no difference either .... maybe some charisma might help ... he just comes over as dull 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, crazyfool1 said:

sorry OZ but nobody takes any  notice of the party conferences they have no relevance to the public im afraid .... how long as Starmer been in office now ? I had hope for him early because he seemed to perform well at PMQS .... but clearly that has made no difference either .... maybe some charisma might help ... he just comes over as dull 

I think a lot of people have already made up their minds about starmer. He's doomed. Maybe they should bring back Tony Blair?

[steviewevie]

Nothing like a spat with the French over those horrid asylum seekers...good job Priti. A lot easier to understand than National Insurance and paying for health and social care.

[Crazyfool01]

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Nothing like a spat with the French over those horrid asylum seekers...good job Priti. A lot easier to understand than National Insurance and paying for health and social care.

A small issue with breaking maritime law to deal with … Mind you I’m sure she can bully her way through it … 

[hfuhruhurr]

43 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

A small issue with breaking maritime law to deal with … Mind you I’m sure she can bully her way through it … 

Yep - they discussed this on the news just now - there's no international water between us, so any "turning back" would (a) require the vessel to be totally seaworthy (i.e. no one in any danger - queue someone jumping off); (b) require the French to accept the vessel. Otherwise it's illegal.

On this topic, never understood, if the most desperate people in the world with no money, in a foreign land can find the people smugglers, why can't we/the french?

[Crazyfool01]

9 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

Yep - they discussed this on the news just now - there's no international water between us, so any "turning back" would (a) require the vessel to be totally seaworthy (i.e. no one in any danger - queue someone jumping off); (b) require the French to accept the vessel. Otherwise it's illegal.

On this topic, never understood, if the most desperate people in the world with no money, in a foreign land can find the people smugglers, why can't we/the french?

Maybe gavin Williamson is in charge of identification 😂

[Ozanne]

3 hours ago, crazyfool1 said:

sorry OZ but nobody takes any  notice of the party conferences they have no relevance to the public im afraid .... how long as Starmer been in office now ? I had hope for him early because he seemed to perform well at PMQS .... but clearly that has made no difference either .... maybe some charisma might help ... he just comes over as dull 

They will get attention in the news which will in-turn lead to more people seeing snippets of at least Starmers keynote speech. If it’s a brilliant speech with good policy included it might help in some way. Equally Conference will hopefully be where we hear more about what a Labour government would do, which is what people have been crying out for.

[Crazyfool01]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

They will get attention in the news which will in-turn lead to more people seeing snippets of at least Starmers keynote speech. If it’s a brilliant speech with good policy included it might help in some way. Equally Conference will hopefully be where we hear more about what a Labour government would do, which is what people have been crying out for.

He’s had months to do this … why wait for a conference?!  …. He should go on the offensive when the story’s are fresh and have a reply as to what Labour policies are when Boris is taunting him in the commons .. the news clips from last night as much picked up on the Labour lack of policy as the faults with the govt 

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, crazyfool1 said:

He’s had months to do this … why wait for a conference?!  …. He should go on the offensive when the story’s are fresh and have a reply as to what Labour policies are when Boris is taunting him in the commons .. the news clips from last night as much picked up on the Labour lack of policy as the faults with the govt 

I only mention Conference as it’s coming up and it’s a massive moment for him as leader, if he doesn’t deliver then it could set in motion the wheels of a leadership challenge.

I’m sorry mate but he has been doing that, every time there’s a scandal or crises he’s in the news criticising the government. He might not be offering concrete policies but in the HoC the other day he responded with a few ideas of what Labour would do (capital gains tax increase). I get that it might not be enough but some of what people are asking for he has been doing, maybe that’s the point I suppose, he needs to be more aggressive with it. 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

He’s had months to do this … why wait for a conference?!  …. He should go on the offensive when the story’s are fresh and have a reply as to what Labour policies are when Boris is taunting him in the commons .. the news clips from last night as much picked up on the Labour lack of policy as the faults with the govt 

Oz is right, conference is the time when the leader makes their big speech and labour kind of sets out it's agenda, and it does get in the news and gets noticed, but not sure how much difference actually makes. I mean when he makes a speech any time will many people actually care?  He has been setting out opposition to govt at various times, not easy during pandemic though, need to criticise but also be constructive and not look like just trying to score political points at a time of crisis. Anyway, we'll just have to see. I'm sure he'll get some love but at same time get a lot of shit and unless govt fucks up badly they'll win next election very easily.

[Zoo Music Girl]

6 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Ok, well if you're going to be all woke...how about Greenpeace or WWF, something like that.

Consider it done!

[Crazyfool01]

16 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Oz is right, conference is the time when the leader makes their big speech and labour kind of sets out it's agenda, and it does get in the news and gets noticed, but not sure how much difference actually makes. I mean when he makes a speech any time will many people actually care?  He has been setting out opposition to govt at various times, not easy during pandemic though, need to criticise but also be constructive and not look like just trying to score political points at a time of crisis. Anyway, we'll just have to see. I'm sure he'll get some love but at same time get a lot of shit and unless govt fucks up badly they'll win next election very easily.

THe person  on the street will take very little notice of party conferences id guess ....  probably labour get about a couple of mins in the 9 o'clock news id say ... I cant remember anything in the newspapers on it .... maybe im wrong but the torys will have some news that day  that hits the front pages ...... I think Starmer is quite an intelligent guy ... but theres something missing that makes him not electable as he would be hammering the polls right now given the mess the tories have created .  and Boris declared the pandemic over with freedom day .... whats Starmer done since ? 

Edited September 9, 2021 by crazyfool1

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, crazyfool1 said:

THe person  on the street will take very little notice of party conferences id guess ....  probably labour get about a couple of mins in the 9 o'clock news id say ... I cant remember anything in the newspapers on it .... maybe im wrong but the torys will have some news that day  that hits the front pages ...... I think Starmer is quite an intelligent guy ... but theres something missing that makes him not electable as he would be hammering the polls right now given the mess the tories have created .  

the tories were doing badly last autumn when they were screwing up with the pandemic, but then started doing well again with the vaccine rollout. It's events. Nothing labour can do except oppose when they need to and as get closer to next election offer an alternative manifesto to the tories. Not easy as Johnson will just say loads of wonderfull boosterism stuff and everyone will believe him and then at some point find out he had lied.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

the tories were doing badly last autumn when they were screwing up with the pandemic, but then started doing well again with the vaccine rollout. It's events. Nothing labour can do except oppose when they need to and as get closer to next election offer an alternative manifesto to the tories. Not easy as Johnson will just say loads of wonderfull boosterism stuff and everyone will believe him and then at some point find out he had lied.

plus...this often happens right? Most of the time the tories are in power..like during the 80s and we had mass unemployment and miners strikes and race riots and all sorts of shit, but they kept winning....and then in recent years a decade of austerity and then brexit chaos and again they still won. Although, saying that labour still won after Iraq, but they were definitely on the slide.

[Ozanne]

28 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

THe person  on the street will take very little notice of party conferences id guess ....  probably labour get about a couple of mins in the 9 o'clock news id say ... I cant remember anything in the newspapers on it .... maybe im wrong but the torys will have some news that day  that hits the front pages ...... I think Starmer is quite an intelligent guy ... but theres something missing that makes him not electable as he would be hammering the polls right now given the mess the tories have created .  and Boris declared the pandemic over with freedom day .... whats Starmer done since ? 

To be fair since July 19th, Starmer has spent time going round the country talking to people to find out what’s important to them so he can start to form policy for the party to be unveiled at Conference.

[steviewevie]

 

[Crazyfool01]

just answer the question .... oh he did in the end 

Edited September 9, 2021 by crazyfool1

[Ryan1984]

4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

the tories were doing badly last autumn when they were screwing up with the pandemic, but then started doing well again with the vaccine rollout. It's events. Nothing labour can do except oppose when they need to and as get closer to next election offer an alternative manifesto to the tories. Not easy as Johnson will just say loads of wonderfull boosterism stuff and everyone will believe him and then at some point find out he had lied.

They always have their go-to of ‘blame the immigrants’ or someone’s disrespecting Churchill (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58505194) when the heat is on them…

[steviewevie]

Jen Williams on dodgy GMP.

 

[steviewevie]

🙃

[Ozanne]

29 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

🙃

I was just about to post that.

A Labour lead though! Incredible, I didn’t think it would happen now. I’m well pleased.