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steviewevie Grand Master

steviewevie

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The thing is it’s easy to say it’s not proportional, I haven’t seen anyone make a good, reasoned article what is proportional.

no...it is difficult...what could Israel do....but with how the world is watching, and how sensitive this situation and already the dire situation for many Palestinians, they should have gone out of their way to target Hamas but keeping civilian deaths and injuries to a minimum...they really haven't. Look at some of the sh*t Israeli govt figures were saying at the start of this...

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Ozanne Grand Master

Ozanne

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13 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

it is subjective...you think it's proportional? Does anyone? I'm sure many in Israel do, but they are hurting and want blood revenge, it is like US after 9/11 and look at where that led...

I’ve said it before but it is like the US after 9/11 and they weren’t in a place emotionally to sit back and negotiate. I think that’s important to try to understand Israelis/jews frame of minds at the moment. 

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steviewevie Grand Master

steviewevie

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Just now, Ozanne said:

I’ve said it before but it is like the US after 9/11 and they weren’t in a place emotionally to sit back and negotiate. I think that’s important to try to understand Israelis/jews frame of minds at the moment. 

yep...and actually this goes deeper as their identity is so tied to the holocaust and to pogroms which this attack was a direct reminder of, but now Palestinians are talking of what is happening in Gaza as a new Nakba. Whole thing is so incredibly grim.

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pink_triangle Mentor

pink_triangle

Posted
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1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

it is subjective...you think it's proportional? Does anyone? I'm sure many in Israel do, but they are hurting and want blood revenge, it is like US after 9/11 and look at where that led...

I think it’s pretty much an impossible question to answer as you are effectively saying if X loses so many innocent lives it’s proportional to accept that Y does. How can you debate what’s not proportional if you are not willing to set the bar of what is? As I have said I haven’t heard one person who states it’s not proportional counter with what is proportional.

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steviewevie Grand Master

steviewevie

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think it’s pretty much an impossible question to answer as you are effectively saying if X loses so many innocent lives it’s proportional to accept that Y does. How can you debate what’s not proportional if you are not willing to set the bar of what is? As I have said I haven’t heard one person who states it’s not proportional counter with what is proportional.

it really should not be a count of bodies. Hamas committed a crime, they are a terrorist group according to Israel and the West. Israel are a state, so should not be committing any crimes in response. If they want to go to war with Hamas, then their fight is with Hamas and Hamas alone. But, it clearly hasn't been

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pink_triangle Mentor

pink_triangle

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

it really should not be a count of bodies. Hamas committed a crime, they are a terrorist group according to Israel and the West. Israel are a state, so should not be committing any crimes in response. If they want to go to war with Hamas, then their fight is with Hamas and Hamas alone. But, it clearly hasn't been

How can you follow the normal rules of war against a terrorist organisation who don’t?  Do you potentially get in the position where you lose the right to defend yourself and just have to accept what’s coming. I’m not necessarily arguing that you’re incorrect that it’s not a proportional response. However i don’t remember you countering with what kind of response you feel would be proportional.

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steviewevie Grand Master

steviewevie

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14 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

How can you follow the normal rules of war against a terrorist organisation who don’t?  Do you potentially get in the position where you lose the right to defend yourself and just have to accept what’s coming. I’m not necessarily arguing that you’re incorrect that it’s not a proportional response. However i don’t remember you countering with what kind of response you feel would be proportional.

ok...so there's a terrorist group living amongst a civilian population, so you bomb the f**king lot and blame the terrorist group for living amongst civilians for all the civilian deaths? You cut off supplies to a whole region of over 2 million people, and blame the terrorist group? Come on, I can't believe anyone could argue now that this is proportional. In any international court obviously Hamas would be found guilty of war crimes, but so would Israel, I have no doubt of that. It will possibly never end up in court to prove me right or wrong...but actually I'm starting to think in this case it might be...

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steviewevie Grand Master

steviewevie

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and I have no idea what would be proportional...as I say they need to go after Hamas, but make every effort to make sure civilian deaths is kept to a minimum. Maybe it would mean Hamas is not wiped out, but maybe it will never be wiped out anyway, top bods are in Qatar or elsewhere as it is...and maybe they will have a load more recruits after this. Hamas wanted Israel to react like this, and this is what Israel are doing, and now the world is turning against Israel more and more. Hamas are winning.

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cellar Proficient

cellar

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

You have nothing to back this up I would imagine.  Gaza Health Authority is under the total control of Hamas.  Its Hamas, full stop.  You can't separate the two because they are the one and the same.

I imagine I have more to back it up than you have that the numbers are just being randomly reported  by Hamas 😉

Obviously no one can know for sure, and it's an ongoing situation where the numbers are being counted by hospitals that are already under crazy pressure, so there are likely to be issues with accuracy in that regard. And there is no specification (as far as I know), as to who is civilian and who is military. But you are claiming that the numbers are entirely fabricated because of Hamas corruption, right? I just think the numbers are actually pretty close to what is being reported. 

Numbers reported by GHA in previous conflicts broadly agreed with other reports of figures (like the UN) - do you dispute those too? If not, you're specifically claiming that only the figures for this conflict are the ones being hugely misrepresented. Saying "500 dead" and then revising the figure the next day sounds less like propaganda and more like an attempt to be accurate. Why not just stick with 500?

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cellar Proficient

cellar

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22 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Steve post was a good one backing up the accuracy of the end figures and I wouldn't dispute the final numbers - they have been backed up by that article.  I wouldn't say I am "disputing" the numbers as such anyway.  There may well have been 3000 child deaths.  Just I wouldn't trust numbers coming out during the fog of war and I certainty would not trust anything coming out of the mouth of terrorists until there has been some confirmation. 

I stand by initial post.  I wouldn't trust the current numbers being thrown around.

That's fine, I would trust them within a margin of error, which I'm happy to do.

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fred quimby Veteran

fred quimby

Posted
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46 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Which the likes of Sweden did and has been shown not to be a terrible plan in the end.  But we seem to be too stubborn to learn anything.  

Was listening to something on this the other month. They were mentioning Sweden and compared it to Norway  who are more comparable to us. Norway did the lockdown and came out with far less deaths. They did not mention the economy though.

But yes we should be learning in how we react to these situations. I do wonder if we will mind

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Ozanne Grand Master

Ozanne

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Posted
Just now, fred quimby said:

Was listening to something on this the other month. They were mentioning Sweden and compared it to Norway  who are more comparable to us. Norway did the lockdown and came out with far less deaths. They did not mention the economy though.

But yes we should be learning in how we react to these situations. I do wonder if we will mind

If we’d gone into lockdown earlier then it wouldn’t have needed to be as long and severe. 

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