news & politics:discussion

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

Basically said that most people don’t really understand the issues, so take the lead from politicians they respect.

And here lies a massive problem and not just re this conflict, but with everything.

Until people wake up and start doing their own research instead of being conned by politicians we're getting nowhere.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

And here lies a massive problem and not just re this conflict, but with everything.

Until people wake up and start doing their own research instead of being conned by politicians we're getting nowhere.

people doing own research leads to many other issues so its not quite that black and white 

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I listened to an interesting podcast about people’s views on foreign affairs. Basically said that most people don’t really understand the issues, so take the lead from politicians they respect.

What does slightly concern me is the feeling things are so polarised that when things like yesterday happen, i get the impression some are more focused on political point scoring than the dead people. I haven’t got a clue what happened and may never know, but it’s a dangerous road if we just look for “facts” that support our view of the world.

I think people want facts...I want facts...I want to know if Israel bombed that hospital or not....and social media is wild now, opinions everywhere...and people just take what they want and we become more and more polarised.

[steviewevie]

In case anyone interested...obviously lots more important things going at moment (leccy 1, hydrogen 0)

 

[cellar]

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

Thought provoking comment in the Times about what is meant by a proportionate response. I'm not sure what I think of it, I know some here won't like it, I don't see realistic alternatives but  I also don't like the conclusions.
He argues being proportionate is not about the death toll on each side but whether the objective is proportional. So if you accept Hamas are an obstacle to peace and it is reasonable for Isreal to defeat Hamas then you also accept innocent deaths cab be part of the propotionate response -

"These are the tests that ought now to be applied to Israel’s actions. Is the military objective necessary? When pursuing it, were civilian casualties intentional? And even if they were unintentional, were they excessive in relation to the achievement of concrete military advantage?

These are tough tests and require Israel to take care with everything it does. But they are also not bogus tests. They accept that Israel has the right to defend itself and that it is inevitable that, when it does so, some innocent people will die."

I don't know if the share token will work.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dd01a5de-6d03-11ee-b5d7-5487922f056f?shareToken=ad34b6ad8e9f210c03849bf527150b86

 

 

The same sort of logic can be used to justify Hamas actions in the first place. Not that I believe we should be trying to justify the deaths of innocent people. 

I think we can point out wrongdoing on both sides, and Israel is culpable for far more than Hamas over the years, and not just because of numbers of lives lost. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by cellar

[mattiloy]

 

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

Thought provoking comment in the Times about what is meant by a proportionate response. I'm not sure what I think of it, I know some here won't like it, I don't see realistic alternatives but  I also don't like the conclusions.
He argues being proportionate is not about the death toll on each side but whether the objective is proportional. So if you accept Hamas are an obstacle to peace and it is reasonable for Isreal to defeat Hamas then you also accept innocent deaths cab be part of the propotionate response -

"These are the tests that ought now to be applied to Israel’s actions. Is the military objective necessary? When pursuing it, were civilian casualties intentional? And even if they were unintentional, were they excessive in relation to the achievement of concrete military advantage?

These are tough tests and require Israel to take care with everything it does. But they are also not bogus tests. They accept that Israel has the right to defend itself and that it is inevitable that, when it does so, some innocent people will die."

I don't know if the share token will work.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dd01a5de-6d03-11ee-b5d7-5487922f056f?shareToken=ad34b6ad8e9f210c03849bf527150b86

 

 

 
This is very stupid.

Its cutting off the hydra’s head, as with the taliban in afghanistan. Only a complete genocide would achieve peace in this way. Complete.

The only way a lasting peace is possible is by getting people who hate each others guts around a table and thrashing out a deal in which in terms of the extremes of their objectives neither side wins, but neither side loses, but both sides win something much greater than that- peace and stability, which beyond saving human lives is also fundamental to prosperity.

That happened in northern ireland but that was with a big push from the international community. It was also a war in which both sides were hurting equally.

Unfortunately the hurt in israel/palestine is massively asymmetric. This terror attack was horrendous. But by and large, israel is a prosperous country and people can mostly go about their business and feel fairly insulated from the horrors of war. So what incentive to they have to sue for a fair peace?

Similarly, whilst the irish community in the US is large and influential, the same can’t be said of the palestinian community. So the will of the usual international mediators has also been absent.

Maybe things change after this, but it will take a lot.

Edited October 18, 2023 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, cellar said:

The same sort of logic can be used to justify Hamas actions in the first place. Not that I believe we should be trying to justify the deaths of innocent people. 

I think we can point out wrongdoing on both sides, and Israel is culpable for far more than Hamas over the years, and not just because of numbers of lives lost. 

this is the war crime thing...deliberately killing civilians is a war crime...civilians dying because caught up in war not necessarily a war crime. So, what Hamas did was 100% a war crime. What Israel have been doing is more disputable (but I think would be found as war crimes - especially cutting off supplies into Gaza).

Edited October 18, 2023 by steviewevie

[Neil]

27 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

this is the war crime thing...deliberately killing civilians is a war crime...civilians dying because caught up in war not necessarily a war crime. So, what Hamas did was 100% a war crime. What Israel have been doing is more disputable (but I think would be found as war crimes - especially cutting off supplies into Gaza).

The likes of Skippy is blind to the war crimes of his team.

[Skip997]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

The likes of Skippy is blind to the war crimes of his team.

The actual opinion of the " likes of Skippy" is that the term "war crimes" is ridiculous, as in his opinion all war is a crime.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

The actual opinion of the " likes of Skippy" is that the term "war crimes" is ridiculous, as in his opinion all war is a crime.

even a war against fascism?

[cellar]

53 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

this is the war crime thing...deliberately killing civilians is a war crime...civilians dying because caught up in war not necessarily a war crime. So, what Hamas did was 100% a war crime. What Israel have been doing is more disputable (but I think would be found as war crimes - especially cutting off supplies into Gaza).

But you do know I'm referring to the decades of human rights abuses by Israel, not just this one specific conflict.

[Neil]

spotted this article this morning, about strokes, which i've got an interest in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67134493

more rehab is a great idea , but the article states its not possible cos they don't have the staff.

so i slagged the idea in a  stroke whatsapp group i'm in, it turned out that  one of the people who formulated the new policy is  member of that group, and she was offended by me slagging off the idea  and also told me that i know the other person involved with the new policy (this is Bristol driving nationwide NHS  best practice for stroke 🙂 and the volunteering i do for a stroke charity is part of that).

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, cellar said:

But you do know I'm referring to the decades of human rights abuses by Israel, not just this one specific conflict.

and few people of your mindset refer to  the decades of human rights abuses by Palestinians not just this one specific conflict.

[steviewevie]

16 minutes ago, cellar said:

But you do know I'm referring to the decades of human rights abuses by Israel, not just this one specific conflict.

so what Hamas did was justified response to past crimes by Israel? I mean...both sides will say this, you know that right? 

In the end current situation is Hamas controls Gaza, but Israel has a blockade on Gaza. Now, that is no good for Gaza, but does that warrant Hamas invading and then killing hundreds of Israeli civilians in their homes or at a party or whatever and then taking a whole bunch of people including children, old people, and everything in between hostage..? And Hamas knew what this would mean for Gaza, they are not idiots. They knew there would be a mental response, and they want something bigger and badder. Yes Israeli govt are c**ts, but Hamas are the bigger c**ts imo

Edited October 18, 2023 by steviewevie

[Skip997]

25 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

even a war against fascism?

Some times crime is justifiable

[Skip997]

Quote

A short while ago in New York, the US vetoed a UN Security Council draft resolution calling for humanitarian pauses in Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

Some times crime is justifiable

ah ok...so war crimes are ok if they suit your mindset?

[Neil]

Just now, steviewevie said:

ah ok...so war crimes are ok if they suit your mindset?

that's normally how it works 😛 

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Hamas knew what this would mean for Gaza, they are not idiots

yeah, they are idiots cos they knew what it would mean for Gaza: supporting Hamas is also supporting the deaths in Gaza.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Neil

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

yeah, they are idiots cos they knew what it would mean for Gaza: supporting Hamas is also supporting the deaths in Gaza.

I don't think they're idiots. But I do think they're c**ts.

[Ozanne]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

so what Hamas did was justified response to past crimes by Israel? I mean...both sides will say this, you know that right? 

In the end current situation is Hamas controls Gaza, but Israel has a blockade on Gaza. Now, that is no good for Gaza, but does that warrant Hamas invading and then killing hundreds of Israeli civilians in their homes or at a party or whatever and then taking a whole bunch of people including children, old people, and everything in between hostage..? And Hamas knew what this would mean for Gaza, they are not idiots. They knew there would be a mental response, and they want something bigger and badder. Yes Israeli govt are c**ts, but Hamas are the bigger c**ts imo

How come when those people talk about actions of groups like Hamas they always comment on Israel’s actions too? They can never just criticise Hamas, it’s like they have to bring in the other group that drag them down too. 

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

I don't think they're idiots. But I do think they're c**ts.

they're idiots following a losing and disastrous  and murderous strategy that serves the Palestinians very poorly.

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67141589

who knew that the USA veto's resolutions that are critical of Israel.

[Crazyfool01]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

How come when those people talk about actions of groups like Hamas they always comment on Israel’s actions too? They can never just criticise Hamas, it’s like they have to bring in the other group that drag them down too. 

ive not yet seen you mention the plight of those in Gaza ? and leave out Israel .... it works both ways 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Crazyfool01

[SheffJeff]

28 minutes ago, Neil said:

and few people of your mindset refer to  the decades of human rights abuses by Palestinians not just this one specific conflict.

I think this demonstrates Israel aren't without blame.