news & politics:discussion

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

so...seeing as there's a good chance that labour will just fight with itself, something they're very good at, whereas tories are so good at masking divisions and winning elections...the choice for next PM for the forseeable is probably either Sunak or Truss...and I am starting to lean more towards preferring Truss as PM...she may be a bit mad and erratic, and we'll likely see brexit bollocks and culture wars bubbling away to keep the base happy, and union/worker/human rights will be further diminished and public services will be further starved of much needed funding...but at least I won't have to pay so much tax.

The Tories aren’t very good at hiding it at the moment, take a look at the debates as an example.

Labour aren’t fighting, it’s just the usual left wing people on Twitter moaning. 

[Ozanne]

 

[squirrelarmy]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Labour aren’t fighting, it’s just the usual left wing people on Twitter moaning. 

It’s the usual case of if you’re not full left wing you’re a Tory no matter the colour of the badge. 

[mattiloy]

The Labour right has been trying to rig reselection ballots vs socialist MPs.

Ian Byrne is the latest. An ex printer and cabbie who won MP of the year for his work  with fans supporting foodbanks and is known for campaigning tirelessly for feeding kids and housing homeless in liverpool.

He also won close to 80% of the vote in his constituency.

If they reselect Byrne, I’ll be voting Tory out of spite. Maximum damage to this foul party full of the worst fucking shithouses in existence 

Edited July 30, 2022 by mattiloy

[squirrelarmy]

50 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I’ll be voting Tory out of spite. Maximum damage to this foul party full of the worst fucking shithouses in existence 

Is somebody still upset that Magic Grandpa got kicked out?

[mattiloy]

28 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Is somebody still upset that Magic Grandpa got kicked out?

Lol what

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

The Labour right has been trying to rig reselection ballots vs socialist MPs.

Ian Byrne is the latest. An ex printer and cabbie who won MP of the year for his work  with fans supporting foodbanks and is known for campaigning tirelessly for feeding kids and housing homeless in liverpool.

He also won close to 80% of the vote in his constituency.

If they reselect Byrne, I’ll be voting Tory out of spite. Maximum damage to this foul party full of the worst fucking shithouses in existence 

In general I'm against deselections as I think parties work better as broader spectrums. However I do have some sympathy with the argument that once someone is in place in a safe seat it's hard to get them out. I'm not sure what the right balance is.

I would consider Liverpool more left wing than the average constituency so it probably follows they have a more left wing MP. The Tarry case seems slightly different as my understanding is that some members felt there was a stitch up last time preventing them getting the candidate they wanted.

 

[mattiloy]

20 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

In general I'm against deselections as I think parties work better as broader spectrums. However I do have some sympathy with the argument that once someone is in place in a safe seat it's hard to get them out. I'm not sure what the right balance is.

I would consider Liverpool more left wing than the average constituency so it probably follows they have a more left wing MP. The Tarry case seems slightly different as my understanding is that some members felt there was a stitch up last time preventing them getting the candidate they wanted.

 

Well, Ian Byrne has the fifth largest majority in the country (just shy of 80% of the votes and a 30,000 vote majority). The Apsana Begum reselection is being lead by friends and family of her ex husband, a former Labour councillor who domestically abused her. There have also been reports of illegitimate moves against Zarah Sultana.

So yeah, without knowing the ins and outs of the Tarry case, the fact that its the same pattern of phony ballots happening to other members of the socialist campaign group indicates that it is in fact coordinated.

I would hazard a guess that (along with the rule change to require a higher % of MPs to nominate a candidate for a leadership election) its an attempt to make it guaranteed that when Starmer loses the next GE and resigns, then there will be no candidate that doesn’t believe in privatising the NHS on the ballot, and the party will remain under the control of red tories forever. In which case its over. The final nail in the coffin of democracy in the UK. A false choice between tory and tory for eternity 

Edited July 30, 2022 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

Or lib dem

[Ozanne]

Corbyn made it easier to de-select MPs but the left don’t acknowledge that. 

[Ozanne]

I love this man so much. 

[steviewevie]

Still, this will cheer you up...

 

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Well, Ian Byrne has the fifth largest majority in the country (just shy of 80% of the votes and a 30,000 vote majority). The Apsana Begum reselection is being lead by friends and family of her ex husband, a former Labour councillor who domestically abused her. There have also been reports of illegitimate moves against Zarah Sultana.

So yeah, without knowing the ins and outs of the Tarry case, the fact that its the same pattern of phony ballots happening to other members of the socialist campaign group indicates that it is in fact coordinated.

I would hazard a guess that (along with the rule change to require a higher % of MPs to nominate a candidate for a leadership election) its an attempt to make it guaranteed that when Starmer loses the next GE and resigns, then there will be no candidate that doesn’t believe in privatising the NHS on the ballot, and the party will remain under the control of red tories forever. In which case its over. The final nail in the coffin of democracy in the UK. A false choice between tory and tory for eternity 

Looking at his constituency his predecessors (not from labour left) also had a huge majority so I'm not convinced it's down to Byrne, o suspect anyone with a red Rosette would have similar.

From memory the Corbyn wing of the party wanted to make it easier to deselect MPs so hard to complain when used against them. Apparently Tarry rival in 2019 was not allowed to stand because of accusations later disproved. In this case it seems reasonable he should have a chance. What are your views on what the rules for deselection should be? I have some concerns it makes a more narrow party who are less electable, but also concerned that no options mean someone like Kate Hoey could in the past stay as a labour mp. Not sure where the happy medium is.

[Ozanne]

 

[mattiloy]

8 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Looking at his constituency his predecessors (not from labour left) also had a huge majority so I'm not convinced it's down to Byrne, o suspect anyone with a red Rosette would have similar.

From memory the Corbyn wing of the party wanted to make it easier to deselect MPs so hard to complain when used against them. Apparently Tarry rival in 2019 was not allowed to stand because of accusations later disproved. In this case it seems reasonable he should have a chance. What are your views on what the rules for deselection should be? I have some concerns it makes a more narrow party who are less electable, but also concerned that no options mean someone like Kate Hoey could in the past stay as a labour mp. Not sure where the happy medium is.

Well the alternative hypothesis is that Liverpool, a city that voted in the militant tendency to control the city council, has become some kind of Blairite stronghold which has decided that its tolerated left wingers such as Byrne for long enough. And if you think that this is a reasonable hypothesis, you obviously have never spent any meaningful time in Liverpool.

Deselection is fine if legitimate. MPs should reflect the views of the people who are going to vote for them. To make the process robust to gerrymandering and voter fraud or, as was the concern under the corbyn era, to entryists is the challenge.

Like now, there is basically zero chance that West Derby, both the local Labour party and the constituency at large, would want to see the back of Ian Byrne if all of this was taking place above board.

Maybe Tarry’s seat Ilford South is different, I don’t know what people there are like, maybe they are more blue.

In the case of Byrne, the Labour right is playing with fire. The five safest seats in the country are all in Liverpool. The whole city is properly socialist - not a single tory councillor - with a strong sense of its own independence and self determination. If the Labour right continue to pursue a strategy of trying to oppress socialism, then a split must be on the horizon and Liverpool could well be the crucible for that split.

[mattiloy]

And, incidentally, of the people who the left were threatening with deselection in the Corbyn era, some ended up joining and running as Lib Dems, others were elevated to the lords by Boris Johnson and now sit as independents there, so I guess it was fair enough to question their motives.

[Ozanne]

Corbyn made deselection easier so this is really on him.

[Ozanne]

Also LOL at ‘deselection is valid when Corbyn does it but not when anyone else does’. I summise of course but that’s the general gist.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Ozanne

[mattiloy]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Also LOL at ‘deselection is valid when Corbyn does it but not when anyone else does’. I summise of course but that’s the general gist.

Summise isn’t a word 

[pink_triangle]

51 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Summise isn’t a word 

 

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Well the alternative hypothesis is that Liverpool, a city that voted in the militant tendency to control the city council, has become some kind of Blairite stronghold which has decided that its tolerated left wingers such as Byrne for long enough. And if you think that this is a reasonable hypothesis, you obviously have never spent any meaningful time in Liverpool.

Deselection is fine if legitimate. MPs should reflect the views of the people who are going to vote for them. To make the process robust to gerrymandering and voter fraud or, as was the concern under the corbyn era, to entryists is the challenge.

Like now, there is basically zero chance that West Derby, both the local Labour party and the constituency at large, would want to see the back of Ian Byrne if all of this was taking place above board.

Maybe Tarry’s seat Ilford South is different, I don’t know what people there are like, maybe they are more blue.

In the case of Byrne, the Labour right is playing with fire. The five safest seats in the country are all in Liverpool. The whole city is properly socialist - not a single tory councillor - with a strong sense of its own independence and self determination. If the Labour right continue to pursue a strategy of trying to oppress socialism, then a split must be on the horizon and Liverpool could well be the crucible for that split.

I agree that Liverpool are more left wing than the average constituency, my point was more that a left wing candidate hadn't suddenly vastly increased the vote.

You say deselections fine if legitimate. I guess it then depends what criteria you put in place. In terms of MPs reflecting the views of those who vote for them, does that mean party members or constituents, as they aren't always the same thing.

[Kurosagi]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Well the alternative hypothesis is that Liverpool, a city that voted in the militant tendency to control the city council, has become some kind of Blairite stronghold which has decided that its tolerated left wingers such as Byrne for long enough. And if you think that this is a reasonable hypothesis, you obviously have never spent any meaningful time in Liverpool.

Deselection is fine if legitimate. MPs should reflect the views of the people who are going to vote for them. To make the process robust to gerrymandering and voter fraud or, as was the concern under the corbyn era, to entryists is the challenge.

Like now, there is basically zero chance that West Derby, both the local Labour party and the constituency at large, would want to see the back of Ian Byrne if all of this was taking place above board.

Maybe Tarry’s seat Ilford South is different, I don’t know what people there are like, maybe they are more blue.

In the case of Byrne, the Labour right is playing with fire. The five safest seats in the country are all in Liverpool. The whole city is properly socialist - not a single tory councillor - with a strong sense of its own independence and self determination. If the Labour right continue to pursue a strategy of trying to oppress socialism, then a split must be on the horizon and Liverpool could well be the crucible for that split.

Thanks for this mattiloy, I found it an interesting overview, hadn't realised that the left still dominate local politics in Liverpool and that the tories still don't even have a councillor there. I remember during lockdown times Johnson was playing Liverpool off against Manchester and favouring them with special favours and pilot schemes to try and undermine Burnham and I (wrongly) assumed it was because the tories were starting to make inroads to Liverpool.

[fraybentos1]

13 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I love this man so much. 

Imagine spending your Saturday evening writing this on efestivals 😂😂

[Ozanne]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

Summise isn’t a word 

Indeed it isn’t but that doesn’t invalidate my overall point.

[steviewevie]

 

[Rufus Gwertigan]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

 

I am sorry Steve but what is your point. Is it 10 MP's back a fringe group or is it goes against your views on gender (not trans) equality. This could be an entire thread of its own but seeing as the group involved has just over 2000 FB followers I think they are a very small minority. I troll conspiracy FB pages and one in the UK about chemtrails has over 11k followers. Maybe look into that. It's fun.