news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

I saw yesterday that Govt has cut grants to councils by half since 2010. 

some councils do better than others...

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

some councils do better than others...

yeah, depends how much they planned ahead,

[steviewevie]

31 minutes ago, Neil said:

yeah, depends how much they planned ahead,

or if they're tory.

[cellar]

3 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I’m saying that higher than expected inflation of 11% isn’t justification for raising taxes again on working people and for austerity 2.0.

Are you saying you want people that are already struggling to have even less money?

Okay, so you weren't responding to what I was saying - you said that you wanted them to tax wealth, and I pointed out that the things I mentioned were taxing wealth. You are keeping it quite vague (perhaps deliberately so) when you talk about "working people" - clearly that includes people who would be affected by changes to CGT and Higher Rate thresholds. I wanted clarification on whether or not you actually wanted to tax wealth, given the ambiguity of your statement.

Your question on the other hand, does not seem to be based on anything that I have actually said. Do you know what a straw man argument is?

[km9]

Interested to read the response.

The tories are regularly criticised for lowering taxes, now ozanne is criticising them for raising taxes. By all means, hate them, but at least have a good reason.

[steviewevie]

I prefer tax rises, as long as fair, than more cuts, especially as things have already been cut to the bone. Biggest govt expenditure is NHS, and there's no way they can be making any cuts to that at moment, then probably social care and welfare, education, defense...things like that. Where are the cuts going to come from? So, yeah, freeze or lower thresholds and stuff to get more money from wealth and higher incomes...but going forward if we do want a well funded health service and social care and all the other stuff then maybe we'll all have to start paying a bit more.

Edited November 16, 2022 by steviewevie

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, cellar said:

Okay, so you weren't responding to what I was saying - you said that you wanted them to tax wealth, and I pointed out that the things I mentioned were taxing wealth. You are keeping it quite vague (perhaps deliberately so) when you talk about "working people" - clearly that includes people who would be affected by changes to CGT and Higher Rate thresholds. I wanted clarification on whether or not you actually wanted to tax wealth, given the ambiguity of your statement.

Your question on the other hand, does not seem to be based on anything that I have actually said. Do you know what a straw man argument is?

You said todays news about inflation was a ‘good backdrop’ and ‘justification for whatever measures are announced’. So considering you said ‘whatever measures’ this would indicate you support the rumoured tax rises (plus spending cuts) on people that have seen a stretch on finances for all the reasons I’ve listed, leaving them with even less money.

I don’t think there’s justification for people to have even less money especially when inflation is higher than anticipated. I don’t think there’s justification for working people to pay for the Tories mistakes.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ozanne

[steviewevie]

In the end they've been pushing that will be a mix of tax rises and spending cuts...and pretty hefty ones, although there may be a bit of expectation management going on.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

In the end they've been pushing that will be a mix of tax rises and spending cuts...and pretty hefty ones, although there may be a bit of expectation management going on.

That’s on top of our taxes already being the highest for a century. The Tories aren’t the party of low taxation. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ozanne

[cellar]

8 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

You said todays news about inflation was a ‘good backdrop’ and ‘justification for whatever measures are announced’. So considering you said ‘whatever measures’ this would indicate you support the rumoured tax rises (plus spending cuts) on people that have seen a stretch on finances for all the reasons I’ve listed, leaving them with even less money.

I don’t think there’s justification for people to have even less money especially when inflation is higher than anticipated. I don’t think there’s justification for working people to pay for the Tories mistakes.

Can you give a yes or no answer to the question - Are you in favour of reducing Higher Rate tax threshold, and to changes to CGT tax that would result in people paying more CGT tax?

As to your attempt at deflection, I apologise that the nuance of what I said wasn't clear (I did clarify in a later post, but will do so again). The backdrop is a good backdrop for a government that is going to implement tax rises in whatever form, as it gives them a justification to use. Whether the justification is one you agree with or not is not the thing that I am stating - I am stating that it is a useful tool for them.

There is nothing that needs to be assumed from what I have said in regards tax rises - I unequivocally support the two measures that I have outlined. I have said nothing about cuts, or about tax rises that affect other demographics. Ideally I would not like to see taxes that affect poorer members of society. I would not like to see spending cuts to already struggling infrastructures.

Do you not want to commit to saying you are in favour of taxing wealth because then you would have to admit the Tories did something you agree with tomorrow, if they do go ahead and do them?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, cellar said:

Can you give a yes or no answer to the question - Are you in favour of reducing Higher Rate tax threshold, and to changes to CGT tax that would result in people paying more CGT tax?

As to your attempt at deflection, I apologise that the nuance of what I said wasn't clear (I did clarify in a later post, but will do so again). The backdrop is a good backdrop for a government that is going to implement tax rises in whatever form, as it gives them a justification to use. Whether the justification is one you agree with or not is not the thing that I am stating - I am stating that it is a useful tool for them.

There is nothing that needs to be assumed from what I have said in regards tax rises - I unequivocally support the two measures that I have outlined. I have said nothing about cuts, or about tax rises that affect other demographics. Ideally I would not like to see taxes that affect poorer members of society. I would not like to see spending cuts to already struggling infrastructures.

Do you not want to commit to saying you are in favour of taxing wealth because then you would have to admit the Tories did something you agree with tomorrow, if they do go ahead and do them?

It’s not deflection if I raised these points before you asked your question. I disagreed with it being a good back drop for ‘whatever measures’ are announced tomorrow. Your use of the phrase ‘whatever measures’ implied that whatever is announced tomorrow you think are justified. The 2 main rumoured measures are tax rises and cuts so it’s easy to see why one would think you would be thinking of these. It is good to see you don’t support tax rises given the higher than anticipated level of inflation, like I said all along.

I have already answered your question by saying I want to see tax on wealth but if you are desperate for me to praise the Tories (for some reason) then sure it would be a good start. 

[cellar]

Thanks for clarifying, I sincerely think its fair play that you can accept that. I think you have Barry Fish blocked, but he said I was talking to a brick wall engaging with you, so you just proved him wrong!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, cellar said:

Thanks for clarifying, I sincerely think it’s fair play that you can accept that. I think you have Barry Fish blocked, but he said I was talking to a brick wall engaging with you, so you just proved him wrong!

Same to you for answering my question. 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

According to BoE Bailey blokey UK economy 0.7% smaller than pre pandemic, EU 2.1% bigger, US 4.2%.

[Guest]

The Tories bragged last year about ‘highest growing…’ yet they won’t say anything about this. 

[fred quimby]

24 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

 

The working person will have to pay it back because there isn't anyone else....

I kind of agree here. However   still think a wealth tax would go somwhat to fill the hole. A small percent on wealth over say £10m could raise around £42b per year. That covers the fuel freeze for example. I know Tories, or Labour will not want to but it can be a solution, well part of it.

[lost]

Thing is about a wealth tax is you just look at what they are doing to the tax bands currently. They love a bit of fiscal drag as people are less likely to work out their taxes are going up.

You just know in 10 years time you'll be paying it if you own an average house.

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

I kind of agree here. However   still think a wealth tax would go somwhat to fill the hole. A small percent on wealth over say £10m could raise around £42b per year. That covers the fuel freeze for example. I know Tories, or Labour will not want to but it can be a solution, well part of it.

I mean, it's got to be a vote winner..not sure why hasn't happened.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

I mean, it's got to be a vote winner..not sure why hasn't happened.

Because we only allow working class people to get poorer in this country. 

[lost]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I mean, it's got to be a vote winner..not sure why hasn't happened.

Most of the real wealthy hold their assets in offshore companies/trusts located in tax havens. As I said it'll just turn into a property tax in all but name.

 

[Crazyfool01]

Torys intent on self destructing ... no way they win the next GE .... seems like the polls are going back to Labour now .... think they need a new leader to get them a poll bounce . 

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I agree...  Its a by default win for Labour on the card.  Sunak had a window of opportunity to salvage this I feel but has blown it with this cabinet. 

if they are self destructing like this already ... its only going to get worse as they scramble to try and hold their jobs 

[Kurosagi]

44 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Any sort of wealth tax will just hit the wealthy who already "do the right thing".  The ones who hide money away in offshore companies etc will just increase that practice.  And the problem with hitting the ones who "do the right thing" is it will in the end hit investment into the country.  This is a point often missed by the dogmatic lefties.  The naughty ones hide more money and the good ones just have their ability to reinvest hit.

Yes, I feel quite despondent about this practice (people/companies doing ever increasingly clever things to avoid paying tax) which has accelerated grotesquely over the last couple of decades (the Jimmy Carr and footballers of this world). There are a few 'rowntree' type owners/companies who understand the idea of 'society' and that if you don't pay your fair share then everything gets mucked up, but there's no where near enough good eggs to make a difference.

Whilst a lefty, I also agree that it's not the 70s anymore and so a straightforward tax increase on the wealthy is unlikely to raise the money it should because of the practices you mention. But what's the solution? I don't know enough about tax to understand how you could tighten the situation up these days to actually get a level playing field of people paying their fair share - do you? does anyone?

[Guest]

We could always change the law and close those tax loopholes to ensure that people do pay their share of tax.

Or just let the rich get richer and I’m sure some of it will fall down to the rest of us.