Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury

[Rose-Colored Boy]

3 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Thank you and yeah it was shite but that's life and it's true no matter how bad your life is their is someone always worse off. That's why I don't trust any government regardless of party to do the right thing by everyone

I understand a lot better where you're coming from now, yeah

[DeanoL]

 

On 10/14/2018 at 12:02 PM, glastolover19 said:

But the truth is no body will know till it happens. 

Well that's not fucking good enough is it? We should know. It should be worked out. BEFORE we leave. We can't just "try it and see"  - that's a nonsense. We have to have a deal before we leave (literally "no deal" is a complete fiction - things like airspace access, recognition of passports, etc have to be agreed even with no trade agreement). So we will know what it looks like before we go. Why not have another vote once we do? How is that not democratic?

On 10/14/2018 at 1:12 PM, David756 said:

It’s is funny that the people campaigning for a “people’s vote” are those that have one agenda, to remain in the EU. Pure and simple that is the reason.  

That's partly true and partly not. Yeah, I want another vote because I want to Remain. I'm angry. What I don't get is why Leavers are not even angrier than I am? They're the ones that were promised a new era of prosperity and are now getting "there will probably be enough food".

The fact is, Brexit could have been done "well". I wouldn't have liked it but it could have been done. It took two years from the vote for the government to actually produce a plan (Chequers) laying out what they wanted. That's not the EU. That's us, that's the Tories, taking two years to agree between themselves what they should negotiate for, then the second it comes out, other parts of the government start campaigning against it. Again: it took two years to agree what we wanted to ask for. And it still isn't even agreed by us now. Nevermind what the EU want. That was July, 8 months before we leave. It's a shit show. 

The very fact that, as a Remainer, there's still sort of an option to actually flip the referendum shows how bloody awful a job has been done. There were sensible ways to do this. Pick an existing model: eg. Norway. Or acknowledge we are massively entwined with the EU and set up an 8-10 year transition period to undertake this a proper, long-term project. Instead we just randomly triggered Article 50 with no plan whatsover.

So yes, I would like to stay in the EU, but the campaign for a People's Vote would not have any traction whatsover if what the government were delivering was vaguely competent.

On 10/14/2018 at 2:36 PM, glastolover19 said:

Exactly this. Lets just embrace it/make most of it and see what happens,you never really know till you try

Embrace what? Embrace "there will probably be enough food"? I checked and apparently I'm "not qualified" to set up a new independent trade deal with non-EU countries, so I can't embrace it that way. To embrace it the government have to have delivered some of the benefits, and they haven't. There's not a single new trade deal ready to go in March. There's nothing here to embrace mate. Please, tell me if I'm missing something. Tell me how your life will be getting in March. 

[Thunderstruck]

2 hours ago, Kay95 said:

but relevant to more recent discussions, I believe that there are people out there that choose not to work and claim benefits instead. I also believe that they are a tiny minority and we shouldn't design a punitive and hostile system around them which punishes the vast majority of people out there who would love to work but can't for many and varied reasons.

I agree with this, it isn't easy but you have to find a balance where there is enough incentive to work (better pay anyone?!) without removing benefits for those that genuinely need it. 

[DeanoL]

On 10/14/2018 at 3:23 PM, David756 said:

End of the day the government have to implement Brexit, I know people are upset at the moment but the sheer outrage that would come if they didn't isn't worth thinking about. 

It would be bad. I don't think it would be as bad as the actual consequences of leaving, especially crashing out with no deal.

On 10/14/2018 at 3:42 PM, HalfAnIdiot said:

It's really not a question of people hiding in car boots. A hard border is about imposing custom checks at border crossing points. No one has proposed building a wall along the length of the border between between NI and Eire.

A real concern is that border controls and in particular tarrifs will result in a smuggling 'industry' springing up. Organised crime has strong links with violent political organisations in that part of the world. Putting money into the hands of those fanatics coupled with turf wars can only be a huge risk of re-ignighting the troubles.

A hard border must be avoided.

Maybe I'm just dim but: 

There's free movement between A and B (because of the EU). There's free movement between B and C (because of the GF agreement). Therefore there is free movement between A and C. I don't see a way around that.

You can say "oh we will let people through but not goods" but as you say - smuggling. Or more to the point: people travel with stuff.

On 10/14/2018 at 4:16 PM, glastolover19 said:

 Sorry whatever way you look at it more people voted out then in

I think enough people have changed their minds now that the vote would go the other way. Why are you so opposed to having a vote to check that? Why is the will of people in June 2016 more important than the will of the people now? 

And yes, if people change their mind again in the future, we should have another vote then. 

[glastolover19]

15 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

I understand a lot better where you're coming from now, yeah

Thank you and thats the point we all have different views that have been shaped by our own experiences,that's why I keep saying no one is right or wrong because we are all different with different stories

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

It would be bad. I don't think it would be as bad as the actual consequences of leaving, especially crashing out with no deal.

Maybe I'm just dim but: 

There's free movement between A and B (because of the EU). There's free movement between B and C (because of the GF agreement). Therefore there is free movement between A and C. I don't see a way around that.

You can say "oh we will let people through but not goods" but as you say - smuggling. Or more to the point: people travel with stuff.

I think enough people have changed their minds now that the vote would go the other way. Why are you so opposed to having a vote to check that? Why is the will of people in June 2016 more important than the will of the people now? 

And yes, if people change their mind again in the future, we should have another vote then. 

The problem with 're running the vote is where do you stop,if it was rer run now and went remain then just out of fairness you'd have to run it again so it would be 2 outta 3 instead of 1 all. Also I didn't say I'm against another vote at all I said I was happy to do it providing that's what the majority wants. Based on what your saying is every 2 years we should have a vote,that's madness

[Rose-Colored Boy]

3 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

It would be bad. I don't think it would be as bad as the actual consequences of leaving, especially crashing out with no deal.

 

Yep.. like I said the other day, a few thousand Tommy Robinson skinheads would get over it before long.. several million newly-unemployed middle class suburban lawn-owners would not. The Tory Party would cease to exist and Labour would not be far behind.

Actually that last part sounds ideal if only we didn't have to suffer leaving without a deal to get there.

[glastolover19]

22 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

Well that's not fucking good enough is it? We should know. It should be worked out. BEFORE we leave. We can't just "try it and see"  - that's a nonsense. We have to have a deal before we leave (literally "no deal" is a complete fiction - things like airspace access, recognition of passports, etc have to be agreed even with no trade agreement). So we will know what it looks like before we go. Why not have another vote once we do? How is that not democratic?

That's partly true and partly not. Yeah, I want another vote because I want to Remain. I'm angry. What I don't get is why Leavers are not even angrier than I am? They're the ones that were promised a new era of prosperity and are now getting "there will probably be enough food".

The fact is, Brexit could have been done "well". I wouldn't have liked it but it could have been done. It took two years from the vote for the government to actually produce a plan (Chequers) laying out what they wanted. That's not the EU. That's us, that's the Tories, taking two years to agree between themselves what they should negotiate for, then the second it comes out, other parts of the government start campaigning against it. Again: it took two years to agree what we wanted to ask for. And it still isn't even agreed by us now. Nevermind what the EU want. That was July, 8 months before we leave. It's a shit show. 

The very fact that, as a Remainer, there's still sort of an option to actually flip the referendum shows how bloody awful a job has been done. There were sensible ways to do this. Pick an existing model: eg. Norway. Or acknowledge we are massively entwined with the EU and set up an 8-10 year transition period to undertake this a proper, long-term project. Instead we just randomly triggered Article 50 with no plan whatsover.

So yes, I would like to stay in the EU, but the campaign for a People's Vote would not have any traction whatsover if what the government were delivering was vaguely competent.

Embrace what? Embrace "there will probably be enough food"? I checked and apparently I'm "not qualified" to set up a new independent trade deal with non-EU countries, so I can't embrace it that way. To embrace it the government have to have delivered some of the benefits, and they haven't. There's not a single new trade deal ready to go in March. There's nothing here to embrace mate. Please, tell me if I'm missing something. Tell me how your life will be getting in March. 

Ask me in March or when/if a deal is ironed out. The bottom line is absolutely no person on this planet knows exactly what is going to happen

[sime]

On 10/15/2018 at 12:10 PM, HalfAnIdiot said:

Yup, "fewer than 10 roles" if you look into it.

Panasonic have no plans to move their operations. They employ approx 400 staff in the UK.

Conversly there may end up being some attractive tax advantages to basing a HQ in the UK. We just don't know, which is the unacceptable bit!

"Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review that Panasonic had been considering the move for 15 months, because of Brexit-related concerns such as access to free flow of goods and people.

Panasonic Europe later issued a statement confirming that it was transferring its regional headquarters from Bracknell in the UK to Amsterdam from 1 October.

It said it was doing so for several reasons, including "improved efficiency and cost competitiveness".

It said "fewer than approximately 10" people would be affected out of a staff of 30.

"No Panasonic UK business operations will be affected by the EU headquarters move," the statement added."

Mixes messages. Personally I suspect more companies will begin making plans to leave as we head towards what is really beginning to look like, unless we get a Peoples Vote, the way this whole mess will conclude.

[glastolover19]

13 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

Also I just want to clarify once again I did not vote,so that's the reason I'm trying to remain impartial on it and see both side,I can't criticize or praise it because I understand that by not voting I have kinda given up that right

[glastolover19]

2 minutes ago, sime said:

"Mr Abadie told the Nikkei Asian Review that Panasonic had been considering the move for 15 months, because of Brexit-related concerns such as access to free flow of goods and people.

Panasonic Europe later issued a statement confirming that it was transferring its regional headquarters from Bracknell in the UK to Amsterdam from 1 October.

It said it was doing so for several reasons, including "improved efficiency and cost competitiveness".

It said "fewer than approximately 10" people would be affected out of a staff of 30.

"No Panasonic UK business operations will be affected by the EU headquarters move," the statement added."

Mixes messages. Personally I suspect more companies will begin making plans to leave as we head towards what is really beginning to look like, unless we get a Peoples Vote, the way this whole mess will conclude.

They got any jobs going there?

[DeanoL]

On 10/14/2018 at 5:04 PM, glastolover19 said:

I get what you are saying and yeah everyone should do their own research and base opinions on that but the thing is for every "specialist" who said it was bad idea you can find another that says the opposite

Not true. For every economist saying the UK will be fine, you can find 10 saying it won't.

On 10/15/2018 at 6:02 PM, Apone said:

A second referendum will be a gross abuse of democracy, will lead to civil disobedience and will set a standard for the future whereby any democratic vote can be overturned and re-held because in the opinion of the loser, it was the wrong result

Why not? It's not like it's the day after the referendum. By March it will have been nearly three years. There will have been less time between the two referendums than there was between the last two general elections. And if people have genuinely changed their minds, why is it so wrong?

On 10/15/2018 at 6:41 PM, Mr.Tease said:

I think if there was a second referendum, then realistically you can't have a remain option without it looking like a con. As time will be short, and no one wants Mays negotiated deal (or if it doesn't pass in the commons), then you have to take the EU at their word and accept there can be no specially crafted deal- it has to be off the shelf. So that means the options would be no deal, norway or canada+.

I think that's a fair compromise. Remainers can accept the Norway model I think- it's a fair compromise for them (I say that as someone who voted for remain). Need to get down to persuading 10% of leavers though rather than waste time on trying  to remain as is.

If you're going to have a referendum, and go to all that expense and such, why not include Remain? Either it wins, which means it's the will of the people, or it doesn't. I don't see the harm.

On 10/15/2018 at 7:58 PM, Ommadawn said:

So leavers get two bites of the cherry - one with their 1st choice and another with their 2nd?

Ah. People don't understand AV. That's the harm.

[glastolover19]

Just now, DeanoL said:

Not true. For every economist saying the UK will be fine, you can find 10 saying it won't..

I posted a link previously that demonstrated that. I did also say it's up to the reader to draw their own conclusions and that was the reason why people understandably were unsure which way to go

[DeanoL]

14 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

The problem with 're running the vote is where do you stop,if it was rer run now and went remain then just out of fairness you'd have to run it again so it would be 2 outta 3 instead of 1 all. Also I didn't say I'm against another vote at all I said I was happy to do it providing that's what the majority wants. Based on what your saying is every 2 years we should have a vote,that's madness

That's why referendums are problematic, and we have a representative democracy. It should just become another party political issue over time. But yeah, polling and such can generally judge how much opinion has changed, if it changes a lot then there should be another vote. There will certainly be another vote in my life time, where we will rejoin the EU. That's inevitable.

11 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Ask me in March or when/if a deal is ironed out. The bottom line is absolutely no person on this planet knows exactly what is going to happen

Well that's the problem. That's like five months away. Businesses need to plan, people need to plan, we need to understand what is going to happen. We should have figured that out before even invoking Article 50, then everyone would have had a sensible two year notice to get their shit in order for the changes that were understood and well laid out. 

[glastolover19]

Just now, DeanoL said:

That's why referendums are problematic, and we have a representative democracy. It should just become another party political issue over time. But yeah, polling and such can generally judge how much opinion has changed, if it changes a lot then there should be another vote. There will certainly be another vote in my life time, where we will rejoin the EU. That's inevitable.

Well that's the problem. That's like five months away. Businesses need to plan, people need to plan, we need to understand what is going to happen. We should have figured that out before even invoking Article 50, then everyone would have had a sensible two year notice to get their shit in order for the changes that were understood and well laid out. 

That to me is the whole problem is that we triggered article 50 way too early without any plans or structure in place

[DeanoL]

 

56 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Thank you and yeah it was shite but that's life and it's true no matter how bad your life is their is someone always worse off. That's why I don't trust any government regardless of party to do the right thing by everyone

That, respectfully, is where I think you went wrong on the Brexit vote, by not voting. And I had this conversation with a fair few people ahead of the referendum too. I have friends who don't vote, because they don't  trust any party and think they're all the same.

But the Brexit vote, the Brexit vote was quite literally about either voting to have our MPs and government do something very complicated with how the country runs, ultimately ending with them having more power, or telling them to leave it the hell alone. I pushed it a lot at the time: if you don't trust the government, don't trust them with Brexit, vote Remain.

Alas what actually happened was all the main parties were openly supporting Remain, and a lot of people who didn't normally vote, distrusted the government etc. voted Leave just to give them a bloody nose. Weirdly I sometimes wonder if Remain would have won had the Tories backed Leave. Because if that £350 million for the NHS was coming from David Cameron, not Boris Johnson, it would have been less credible.

[Blisterpack]

14 hours ago, glastolover19 said:

I don't believe they have started these forced daily clubs in my area yet however I might be wrong. But do you genuinely not believe that some(not all) people chose to do that instead of working?

Nowhere near as many as the tories and their comrades in the right wing press would have you believe. In the ‘skivers v strivers/ workers v shirkers debate instigated by the tories in the 2015 election they - usually in the form of Ian Duncan Smith - regularly spouted about the ‘three generations of worklessness’ yhat was blighting our country. It got massive unchallenged coverage. The Child Poverty Commission got the Joseph Rowntree Foundation to do an investigation/study into this so they could target their resources in those areas. They literally could find no evidence to support it. They struggled to find much evidence of two generations.  The working class seek work. That is generally what they do, with a very small number of exceptions. The ruling class avoid work, with a similar number of exceptions. Working class tories, whilst welcome at Glastonbury and, I’m sure, on this forum, are a part of my community I will never understand nor identify with. Not ‘liking’ Labour is all the more reason for workers to engage with the party to make it reflect true working class values such as fairness and justice - things naturally abhorrent to the ruling class/Tories. 

Now, fill your form in, join up and turn your values into the nation’s Values. Otherwise Rees Mogg and his cronies will continue to win every hand being dealt. 

[glastolover19]

17 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

That, respectfully, is where I think you went wrong on the Brexit vote, by not voting. And I had this conversation with a fair few people ahead of the referendum too. I have friends who don't vote, because they don't  trust any party and think they're all the same.

But the Brexit vote, the Brexit vote was quite literally about either voting to have our MPs and government do something very complicated with how the country runs, ultimately ending with them having more power, or telling them to leave it the hell alone. I pushed it a lot at the time: if you don't trust the government, don't trust them with Brexit, vote Remain.

Alas what actually happened was all the main parties were openly supporting Remain, and a lot of people who didn't normally vote, distrusted the government etc. voted Leave just to give them a bloody nose. Weirdly I sometimes wonder if Remain would have won had the Tories backed Leave. Because if that £350 million for the NHS was coming from David Cameron, not Boris Johnson, it would have been less credible.

I kinda disagree I think a lot of people voted who were unsure because they felt they had to and because they were unsure they went with the crowd.No one should be made to vote or be made to feel bad for not doing so

[glastolover19]

19 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Nowhere near as many as the tories and their comrades in the right wing press would have you believe. In the ‘skivers v strivers/ workers v shirkers debate instigated by the tories in the 2015 election they - usually in the form of Ian Duncan Smith - regularly spouted about the ‘three generations of worklessness’ yhat was blighting our country. It got massive unchallenged coverage. The Child Poverty Commission got the Joseph Rowntree Foundation to do an investigation/study into this so they could target their resources in those areas. They literally could find no evidence to support it. They struggled to find much evidence of two generations.  The working class seek work. That is generally what they do, with a very small number of exceptions. The ruling class avoid work, with a similar number of exceptions. Working class tories, whilst welcome at Glastonbury and, I’m sure, on this forum, are a part of my community I will never understand nor identify with. Not ‘liking’ Labour is all the more reason for workers to engage with the party to make it reflect true working class values such as fairness and justice - things naturally abhorrent to the ruling class/Tories. 

Now, fill your form in, join up and turn your values into the nation’s Values. Otherwise Rees Mogg and his cronies will continue to win every hand being dealt. 

Yeah I have no doubt it's not as bad as the press etc have you believe and I can only base it on my own experience but come to my kid's school at least 50% of the parents there openly brag about going home to watch Jeremy Kyle instead of working. Your right I don't like Labour but then I don't like Tories,ukip and the rest of them,some are better then others but really they are all in it for themselves. I do often wonder if they cut mp pay and perks down to a minimum wage level how many of the current mp's would stay,I think if you did that you'd get a better balance all round because they would do it because they feel passionate about it and not just as a career choice

[Rose-Colored Boy]

24 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Yeah I have no doubt it's not as bad as the press etc have you believe and I can only base it on my own experience but come to my kid's school at least 50% of the parents there openly brag about going home to watch Jeremy Kyle instead of working. Your right I don't like Labour but then I don't like Tories,ukip and the rest of them,some are better then others but really they are all in it for themselves. I do often wonder if they cut mp pay and perks down to a minimum wage level how many of the current mp's would stay,I think if you did that you'd get a better balance all round because they would do it because they feel passionate about it and not just as a career choice

Mmm. They do work damn hard - well, most of them - and would probably deserve the salary they get, if only the vast majority of the rest of the country wasn’t so underpaid. It does look absolutely terrible when they bang on about how “everyone must suffer” in austerity and they clearly don’t. Even the ones who donate their regular payrises to charity don’t get off totally scot-free, because it’s still a mental health luxury to be able to be in a position to donate large sums to charity which most people don’t have.

[glastolover19]

3 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

Mmm. They do work damn hard - well, most of them - and would probably deserve the salary they get, if only the vast majority of the rest of the country wasn’t so underpaid. It does look absolutely terrible when they bang on about how “everyone must suffer” in austerity and they clearly don’t. Even the ones who donate their regular payrises to charity don’t get off totally scot-free, because it’s still a mental health luxury to be able to be in a position to donate large sums to charity which most people don’t have.

Damn hard I think is massive exaggeration,admittedly some do work really hard but not most. I'd swap my min wage warehouse job with them

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, glastolover19 said:

Damn hard I think is massive exaggeration,admittedly some do work really hard but not most. I'd swap my min wage warehouse job with them

Happy to help...
https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/standing/

 

[glastolover19]

1 hour ago, clarkete said:

Happy to help...
https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/standing/

 

74k stating wage,it's ruddy tempting

[clarkete]

Just now, glastolover19 said:

74k stating wage,it's ruddy tempting

It's not quite the delightful walk in the park that most seem to think these days.

Note the 1997 result here for ME...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_(UK_Parliament_constituency) 

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, clarkete said:

It's not quite the delightful walk in the park that most seem to think these days.

Note the 1997 result here for ME...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_(UK_Parliament_constituency) 

For 3 and half+ times my current wage I don't mind too much,chuck in all the extra holiday on top as well and I imagine it ain't too bad