Football 2015/16

[Wooderson]

Just now, eFestivals said:

So no justice served just yet then. The fight goes on.

And I say 'the fight goes on' with all angles in mind, including the one where the fight will finally be over but nothing will have changed for those who lost loved ones, which just makes me feel desperately sad for them.

So while I was to see people brought to justice, I'm not entirely sure the fight continuing is a good thing for those directly involved. Really, what they need is to move on with their lives as best they can. I hope that they can.

 

Jail the lying cowards.

[TheGayTent]

I don't think it's necessarily right that anyone who unintentionally contributed towards the cause of the disaster, is prosecuted. Whether that's anyone in the police force, Sheffield Wednesday FC, ambulance service, or engineers. 

Anyone involved in the cover up though deserve everything coming to them. 

[Wooderson]

Those that acted inappropriately will be prosecuted. End of.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

I don't think it's necessarily right that anyone who unintentionally contributed towards the cause of the disaster, is prosecuted. Whether that's anyone in the police force, Sheffield Wednesday FC, ambulance service, or engineers. 

Anyone involved in the cover up though deserve everything coming to them. 

On the first part, I agree to a large extent - particularly because it's almost impossible not to judge the decisions taken in 1989(?) on today's best-practice rather than the practices (and worries about the crowd) of the time.

The best legacy of an awful tragedy is 25+ years of better crowd measures. We're in a much better place due in part to the efforts for justice here, and that better place is what should be celebrated - rather than the possibilities of convictions 25 years after the event, where it's not possible to judge today the context in which the decisions were taken.

[Wooderson]

11 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Couldn't disagree more with you both.  Roll on the prosecutions.  

Families want heads to roll. More power to them.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Couldn't disagree more with you both.  Roll on the prosecutions.  

do you want justice, or revenge?

Its not justice if they're tried with today's very different views towards public safety, and i can't see how they can be tried from the same cultural standpoint as the one that existed on the day.

I feel that 'justice for the 96' is achieved by the statement of their non-culpability for what happened, and the prosecution of those who tried to deem them culpable. Going beyond that it gets difficult to see what what might be just in other prosecutions.

[Wooderson]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

do you want justice, or revenge?

Its not justice if they're tried with today's very different views towards public safety, and i can't see how they can be tried from the same cultural standpoint as the one that existed on the day.

I feel that 'justice for the 96' is achieved by the statement of their non-culpability for what happened, and the prosecution of those who tried to deem them culpable. Going beyond that it gets difficult to see what what might be just in other prosecutions.

Justice is people responsible for inappropriate behaviour paying for their actions. Nothing more, or indeed less.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Families want heads to roll. More power to them.

Yeah, but what the families might want isn't necessarily justice. Justice requires a dispassionate view and not an emotional one.

I fully understand why they might want individuals tried in court for negligences on the day, but Im not sure they'll feel at the end of it that things are any more just than if that didn't happen. The only real justice from their position would be f their lost loved ones could be brought back.

[Wooderson]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Yeah, but what the families might want isn't necessarily justice. Justice requires a dispassionate view and not an emotional one.

I fully understand why they might want individuals tried in court for negligences on the day, but Im not sure they'll feel at the end of it that things are any more just than if that didn't happen. The only real justice from their position would be f their lost loved ones could be brought back.

Let Justice be done, Neil. Let it be seen to be done.

These families have spent a quarter century being told their loved ones contributed to their own deaths and the deaths of their fellow supporters. Told to "let it go, forget about it"... 

No one is mentioning revenge. Justice.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Wooderson said:

Justice is people responsible for inappropriate behaviour paying for their actions. Nothing more, or indeed less.

Absolutely.

And how do you judge today what was inappropriate in 1989? Many of those judgements would be near-impossible.

Remember, these were times when people thought the lack of a safety certificate wasn't a big deal. With hindsight that was clearly a bad call but it's only Hillsboro which has given that hindsight. At the time it was part of the very different culture all decisions were taken within.

[Wooderson]

This "it was all wrong but nobody did anything wrong" shite doesn't wash. Soz.

[GlastoSimon]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

do you want justice, or revenge?

Its not justice if they're tried with today's very different views towards public safety, and i can't see how they can be tried from the same cultural standpoint as the one that existed on the day.

I feel that 'justice for the 96' is achieved by the statement of their non-culpability for what happened, and the prosecution of those who tried to deem them culpable. Going beyond that it gets difficult to see what what might be just in other prosecutions.

I'm afraid that there has got to be repercussions, even if its just down to gross mismanagement of the situation from people like Duckenfield. Its easy to see how the whole thing could have been avoided, and even then you get the impression his own incompetence led to the ambulance services not being informed, hence 'lack of response to the crisis'. The cover up is the biggest one though, and that has to be dealt with. 

I understand what you're saying about the safety certificate, but that's damning as well. 

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The only real justice from their position would be f their lost loved ones could be brought back.

I do absolutely agree with this, and the idea that the justice today comes from the non-culpability of the people who died. That's the important thing, though I do feel repercussions are necessary. 

[eFestivals]

Just now, Wooderson said:

Let Justice be done, Neil. Let it be seen to be done.

These families have spent a quarter century being told their loved ones contributed to their own deaths and the deaths of their fellow supporters. Told to "let it go, forget about it"... 

No one is mentioning revenge. Justice.

To let justice be done you first have to form a view of what justice is.

Today, if a 18th century slave-trader was put in court they'd get a life sentence, for something that wasn't a crime at the time. While Hillsboro isn't that clear cut, the culture gap between today's take and the take at the time is similarly as large.

You mention what drove their quest for justice. Nothing about that side of things is addressed by putting in court (say) the guy who made the bad judgement to open the gates.

Go for those who tried to blame the victims via a cover-up, which was the *real* injustice, sure. Less so those who made bad decisions with no bad intentions who only had the practices of 1989 guiding their judgement for those decisions.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

This "it was all wrong but nobody did anything wrong" shite doesn't wash. Soz.

What was the injustice they've been fighting? That a tragedy happened that no one meant to happen, or that what really happened was tried to be covered up?

I'd say you're mixing together the tragedy part with the injustice part.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, GlastoSimon said:

Its easy to see how the whole thing could have been avoided

No, it's easy *TODAY* to see how the whole thing could have been avoided.

Which is precisely the point I'm making here. Today's crowd safety culture is a million miles away from the culture those decisions were taken within.

People died - I think the same year - at Donington at a festival. There were no prosecutions for negligence, and there's been no campaign for justice, yet they're the victims of the bad practice of the time too.

The difference between Hillsboro and Donington is only within the blame that was put on the victims at Hillsboro. It's that paqrt of things that shopuld be the primary focus for any court action.

[Wooderson]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What was the injustice they've been fighting? That a tragedy happened that no one meant to happen, or that what really happened was tried to be covered up?

I'd say you're mixing together the tragedy part with the injustice part.

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/hillsborough-two-major-criminal-investigations-advanced-stage/

Lets see how these pan out.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

It was wrong on the standards of 1989.  I dont think Neil understands that.

I refer you to today's verdict which confirms the above.

Yep, there's wrong-doing by the standards of 1989. I know that.

But the lax view to that wrong-doing was because of the lax view of everything about crowd safety - rather than just at Hillsboro on that day.

That culture of the time is a very relevant part of things, while it's only really possible to consider it today against today's standards.

I'm just listening to lots of stuff about it on radio 4. Person after person connected to the case is saying "today we have justice" - rather than "we only have justice when anyone who holds any responsibility for what happened has been tried in court".

The justice is in the victims not being blamed for what happened to them, from the mouths of the campaigners I'm hearing.

Edited April 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[TheGayTent]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, it's easy *TODAY* to see how the whole thing could have been avoided.

It's always been easy to see how the whole thing could have been avoided. For example, it could never ever have happened at the Boleyn. 

[GlastoSimon]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, it's easy *TODAY* to see how the whole thing could have been avoided.

Which is precisely the point I'm making here. Today's crowd safety culture is a million miles away from the culture those decisions were taken within.

People died - I think the same year - at Donington at a festival. There were no prosecutions for negligence, and there's been no campaign for justice, yet they're the victims of the bad practice of the time too.

The difference between Hillsboro and Donington is only within the blame that was put on the victims at Hillsboro. It's that paqrt of things that shopuld be the primary focus for any court action.

Duckenfield would have prevented a heck of a lot of deaths by sending officers to usher fans coming through Gate C to the outer pens instead of the central ones. I don't see how that's hindsight. It was blindingly obvious to commentators at the game before kick off, as well as many others.

The bloke in charge of the game before Duckenfield was appointed had a knowledge of the ground and the procedures needed, why didn't Duckenfield? Negligence. 

Edited April 26, 2016 by GlastoSimon

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

You really don't understand that the failure that led to and failed to deal with the tragedy is criminal in itself?   Do you know what unlawful killing means?

Yep. The lack of a safety certificate at the time was criminal.

But ... if there'd been no tragedy on the day and the day after the lack of certificate was discovered, it's unlikely they'd have been prosecuted for it. If it happened today in the same way, they'd very definitely have been prosecuted for it.

Those sorts of differences are very relevant. The overall-lax attitudes were what caused individuals to also take a lax attitude, as a part of the prevailing culture.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

So much you are saying Neil is just utterly false.  You really are speaking lies and ill truths.  You need to review the evidence.  The standards of 1989 should of stopped this disaster. That is a fact.  The police failed to do their duty.  That is a fact.

 

You are reporting lies.

I'm not reporting any lies at all.

I have a different opinion to the worth and validity of prosecutions on (just some) parts of what happened, that's all.

You can stop with the drama queen bit now, and start to use your brain. Thanks.

Yep, the standards of 1989 should have stopped the disaster. But the standards of 1989 were weak and poorly enforced, causing more places than just Hillsboro to make all the same errors - but without the same dreadful consequences. Today is completely different ball game.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

It's not just the safety certificate! Ffs...   

You need to stop this... You are either trolling or incredibly misinformed 

Did I say 'just'?

You need to stop the mock outrage on things I've not said, and try firing up more than the two brain cells.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, GlastoSimon said:

Duckenfield would have prevented a heck of a lot of deaths by sending officers to usher fans coming through Gate C to the outer pens instead of the central ones. I don't see how that's hindsight. It was blindingly obvious to commentators at the game before kick off, as well as many others.

The bloke in charge of the game before Duckenfield was appointed had a knowledge of the ground and the procedures needed, why didn't Duckenfield? 

I've not specified any individual who I think should or shouldn't be prosecuted.  Each should be considered on its merits before going ahead, rather than a prosecution just because some possible law breaking has been identified.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

The best thing about this outcome today...

People like Neil don't matter anymore...

 The truth is there for all to see and now the CPS can do its job...

People like Neil can be put in the loony pigeon hole and ignored!   They don't matter anymore.

what the fuck are you on about you fruitcake?

My comments have been about the worth and validity (or not) of some of the many possible prosecutions, nowt more.

[Wooderson]

Take your point about the difference in applying modern standards/norms to something from 27 years ago. The fuckery of the police cordon on the halfway line, with fans running past them using advertising hoardings as stretchers for example. No way that shite happens in a modern world, 30 minutes after the ref ended the game! 

That said, agreed standards of the day were not achieved. Trained professionals did not follow agreed best practice for the time. This has been shrouded in lies and slander for 1/4 century. Now thats been cleared up we hope the "forces" in question can do what theyre paid to do for once.