Ticket Touts

[UEF]

The guy selling you a burger at Glastonbury has to pay for his pitch, get all his gear there, pay the costs of running a kitchen in the middle of a field and cook and assemble your burger, he then sells it to you at a profit, this is how business works.

He does not get ahead of you in the line for the guy selling £3 burgers, buy a massive number of them, wait for them to sell out in 5 minutes then set up a table next door selling £6 burgers, this is how touting works

If you can't see the difference between the two then we'll have to agree to disagree

[brandycoke]

And you can have it.

http://www.efestivals.co.uk/shop/mugs.shtml

[eFestivals]

To be fair, it sounds like most of us who don't like touting would prefer the industry did something themselves rather than resorting to legislation.

Yep - I've made that exact argument in a number of efestivals articles over the years.

Besides, the laws that the industry asked for to tackle touting also had the govt as as guarantors of their existing businesses, with clauses that would stop new potential competitors from being able to compete with them. It would have resulted in a worse situation than currently exists.

[eFestivals]

May take a few of them.

I think i could punt them on for a tidy profit

I'm hoping you can, i've been buried by the fuckers in my office for the last year.

[pjadnoo]

Now that the argument has died down, a question:

Does anyone know what the bands/venues/festivals think about touting? I know most say "it's gotta be stopped", "it's bad", etc, but very few seem to have actually done anything about it. Given how well the Glasto photo-ID system has worked, and how long it's been, you'd have thought if the venues/bands/festivals really cared, they'd have implemented something similar by now. I can't help but think that for many bands being able to say in articles/on twitter "Oh no our tickets have sold out and are selling for £'000s, isn't that terrible" is actually a chance to get some publicity talking about how popular they are, whilst simultaneously bashing the system that they are (at least in part) allowing to happen.

[Yesiamaduck]

And you can have it.

http://www.efestivals.co.uk/shop/mugs.shtml

[carlosj]

Bad example talking about food at a festival and touting, Riggins. I can take food to a festival and choose not to eat from the vendors there. If I do choose to eat there, there's that word - choice of many vendors (when they have brought it and prepared it on site). No-one has bought all the food and is making me pay a huge increase to buy it, which is what's happening with touts and tickets. Touts take the tickets from the venues instead of letting fans buy them direct - what value is there in that? How is that helping me? Why not just leave that to fans to get the tickets direct?

When Pulp had their last show at Sheffield, I wanted to take my wife, but I was too late and I could only find tickets with 'well known ticket organisations' from £80 to £150 each, until I finally tried the venue and then found out they still had face value £35 for a disabled person (my wife) and carer (me). Novel idea, letting the venue sell the tickets. What saddens me is the focus on moneygrabbing actions, and a blindness to the fact that there are alternatives, and we don't need to crap on people in everyday life, whether for tickets or a seat on the bus. (Go on, call me a bleeding heart liberal).

Sandbag started their scheme for reselling tickets for fans, I've used twickets, and sold numerous tickets at face value to strangers and friends when i couldn't go to gigs. Tom Waits sorted his last UK tour to make people take along ID with their tickets to link up people to names on tickets, so there are ways to prevent touting, like with Glastonbury.

Edited October 14, 2013 by carlosj

[daveinafield]

ok.. an overview from me, possibly not that directly connected with this but with everything about the modern age which Mr Riggins seems to represent

Twenty years ago I queued up at Earls Court for the first U2 (dont start) uk gig in many many years. I was the third in the queue, it was about 1pm. Tickets went on sale at 9am at the box office the next day. By 9am there were thousands behind us in the queue. It had rained a bit in the night but it was quite fun meeting new people in the queue, singing Bob Dylan etc,,,, This is linked to my views on people putting effort in to getting Glasto tickets (pressing f5 for 87 minutes is not comparable), I guess Riggins calls this being 'savvy'...I lost out this year but I wonder how many people that got tickets would be prepared to something 'physical' for them. Id queue overnight again no problem! I used to get really upset with my Glasto fence jumping (I never did) mates but I guess they were doing something physical and 'savvy' in another way. I could have got in for free loads of times - maybe that was not 'savvy' Apparantly Riggins bought tickets on the spur of a moment....in case he liked a headliner

Anyway back to 1992, a month later on the night of the gig I got out of the tube station I saw a guy looking down in the dumps. Turns out a friend of his could not come and he wanted to sell the ticket. I asked how much. He said face value. I had that amount on me. On the other side of the station there was a line of touts selling for quadaruple the amount. I then called my Irish friend (on a payphone!!)who had not seen them since a pub gig in 1980. So, thankyou to that man! He could have very easily been seen as a tout, but he chose not to be!

..so back to those fence jumpers I told you about. Of course, it is partly their ilk that resulted in the superfence being erected and costs spiralling upwards and therefore the camping chair brigade started coming to an event that was once full of naked dreamers and the left wingers. Just after ticket day I posted something I thought quite contreversial. I said at times I felt the people 'offering' to help people on ticket day could be viewed as non profit making touts. I felt guilty after this and regretted the post. I love the helpful idea but yet i still feel uneasy about large syndicates of people getting onto a ticket selling screen and buying large quantaties of tickets for people they have never met, blocking things up for people who have got nowhere near that screen. Riggins would proably say it was savvy. Good job those tickets have photos on them.....

[The Nal]

Now that the argument has died down, a question:

Does anyone know what the bands/venues/festivals think about touting? I know most say "it's gotta be stopped", "it's bad", etc, but very few seem to have actually done anything about it. Given how well the Glasto photo-ID system has worked, and how long it's been, you'd have thought if the venues/bands/festivals really cared, they'd have implemented something similar by now. I can't help but think that for many bands being able to say in articles/on twitter "Oh no our tickets have sold out and are selling for £'000s, isn't that terrible" is actually a chance to get some publicity talking about how popular they are, whilst simultaneously bashing the system that they are (at least in part) allowing to happen.

[jonny2mad]

I dont see where it will all end why not outlaw selling anything for a profit and start building the iron curtain again, I dont see why you would outlaw selling on festival tickets more than antique books, some sinister person could start buying every copy of a rare book or comic to drive up the price

[eFestivals]

Now that the argument has died down, a question:

Does anyone know what the bands/venues/festivals think about touting? I know most say "it's gotta be stopped", "it's bad", etc, but very few seem to have actually done anything about it. Given how well the Glasto photo-ID system has worked, and how long it's been, you'd have thought if the venues/bands/festivals really cared, they'd have implemented something similar by now. I can't help but think that for many bands being able to say in articles/on twitter "Oh no our tickets have sold out and are selling for £'000s, isn't that terrible" is actually a chance to get some publicity talking about how popular they are, whilst simultaneously bashing the system that they are (at least in part) allowing to happen.

I'm of the opinion that Coldplay were in on the touting act that was exposed in a TV doc about touting, as their promoter was exposed as supplying the touting site with tickets but Coldplay never made a statement about their promoter selling tickets for more than the agreed prices.

From that, it seems likely that many of the bigger bands (cos it only matters with the bigger bands) collude with their promoters over it.

One argument that gets put forwards is that by supplying the tout site with lots of tickets at a not-too-inflated price (not of the levels that 'private' touters might try for) they get to undermine those private touters, which does have a certain logic to it. It falls down as an idea tho as it helps create the space for touts in the first place by removing some of the first-sale face value tickets out of the first-sale face value market place, thus creating an even greater demand for touted tickets.

My conclusion is that it's probably 'sold' to bands via that bullshit idea (along with an offer of some of the cash, perhaps), but that because of the ultimate effect it's the promoters simply cashing in where they can - damn those bands who have ethics and try not to charge their fans every last penny they can get them to part with.

[eFestivals]

I dont see where it will all end why not outlaw selling anything for a profit and start building the iron curtain again

You know the discussion going to be difficult when people can't understand that things being a mite different to how they are today doesn't mean tyhat we';d all be speaking North Korean.

Where will it all end? Let's see....

Once upon a time there was a major economic and imperial power that went to war against fascism - Mussolini said "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power." (how apt for today) - and won. The pay off for those who had risked their lives in the forces or servicing them was a new social contract.

That social contract was that never more should the worker be exploited. "a fair days pay for a fair days work" was the cry, equality of opportunity, healthcare free at the point of contact (not 'free healthcare'), access to decent housing, higher education, etc, etc, etc.

People's lives improved, as the rich stopped running off with all the money, and instead 'the workers' finally had enough to live on, to live happily, to live longer.

The world did not fall in.

Then someone said: we can't have the rich not stealing all the money. Let them steal it, all of it. And it was stolen.

And people's lives got worse.

And here we are today. The world is falling in.

Edited October 14, 2013 by eFestivals

[The Naughty One]

Money that is not earned is stolen.

[frostypaw]

I'd argue that if the seller knew what the "market price" was for their items then they would probably charge something along those lines - meaning their ignorance allows others to take advantage of the situation for their own personal gain.

[russycarps]

Such a shame that glastonbury seems to attract more and more of these kinds of people with these kinds of views each year

Edited October 14, 2013 by russycarps

[jeffie]

Frosty, unfortunately, as I'm sure you are well aware, that's the lesson learned by the young. It's not their fault. As I said neoliberalism has won the fight. Thatcher, Blair, now Cameron, have all led to this.

Russy, this is what we have to try to work with. Abusing them, as I am sorry I did, doesn't help. We can only hope that they will realise before it's too late.

Edited October 14, 2013 by jeffie

[The Naughty One]

Such a shame that glastonbury seems to attract more and more of these kinds of people with these kinds of views each year

[frostypaw]

Such a shame that glastonbury seems to attract more and more of these kinds of people with these kinds of views each year

[russycarps]

Frosty, unfortunately, as I'm sure you are well aware, that's the lesson learned by the young. It's not their fault. As I said neoliberalism has won the fight. Thatcher, Blair, now Cameron, have all led to this.

Russy, this is what we have to try to work with. Abusing them, as I am sorry I did, doesn't help. We can only hope that they will realise before it's too late.

[frostypaw]

Frosty, unfortunately, as I'm sure you are well aware, that's the lesson learned by the young. It's not their fault. As I said neoliberalism has won the fight. Thatcher, Blair, now Cameron, have all led to this.

[Guest]

I was saying none of us are truly moral, not asking whatever question it is you've answered in a sly way. Unless you act completely morally for your whole life.

You've a right to say what you like yeah, but it's not a moral thing to call someone scum, therefore defeating whatever point you were trying to make about your own morality.

[jeffie]

Hmm this is freakishly like the christmas dinner family argument - are you my uncle alan?

[dixietheduck]

It was interesting to read through all of this..as ever!

Only have one thing to add..I agree that some sort of regulation should be at least attempted by the industries involved, but I fear the outlook is bleak. I noticed a few weeks ago that the former Home Depot Center (a sports arena) out here in California has been renamed The Stubhub Center. Seems like something out of Idiocracy to me. It blew my mind that even the venue itself is taking such a great deal of sponsorship money from the resale of tickets (theirs/other arenas and venues). I know things are different (and thankfully better) in the UK when it comes to the regulation of large corporations..but seeing as the big ticket sellers and resellers are multinational, it is worrying that they are clearly hungry to stick their oar in with the venues themselves.

[MoonBuggy]

I'm of the opinion that Coldplay were in on the touting act that was exposed in a TV doc about touting, as their promoter was exposed as supplying the touting site with tickets but Coldplay never made a statement about their promoter selling tickets for more than the agreed prices.

From that, it seems likely that many of the bigger bands (cos it only matters with the bigger bands) collude with their promoters over it.

One argument that gets put forwards is that by supplying the tout site with lots of tickets at a not-too-inflated price (not of the levels that 'private' touters might try for) they get to undermine those private touters, which does have a certain logic to it. It falls down as an idea tho as it helps create the space for touts in the first place by removing some of the first-sale face value tickets out of the first-sale face value market place, thus creating an even greater demand for touted tickets.

My conclusion is that it's probably 'sold' to bands via that bullshit idea (along with an offer of some of the cash, perhaps), but that because of the ultimate effect it's the promoters simply cashing in where they can - damn those bands who have ethics and try not to charge their fans every last penny they can get them to part with.

[eFestivals]

You are wrong, not that you will ever admit it.

The definition of steal:-

Ahhh, morality defined by linguistics.

I love that, me.

So let's try things another way (in language more suited to your thinking), shall we....?

You know those worthless scum on benefits? They're worthless because they contribute nothing to society, right?

Care to tell me what contribution to society you've made by denying someone something they could have bought for £X, and instead making them pay £Y for exactly the same thing?

There is adding value, and then there is adding nothing (just like those benefit scroungers). Guess which one you are?

Edited October 15, 2013 by eFestivals