Football 2013-2014

[The Nal]

Care to point out the massive changes in the Utd squad to make them a team in transition?

Edited January 22, 2014 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

The younger players being given time. De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Januzaj and Zaha if he plays him. Thats a transition.

PMSL

Rafael has played regularly for 6 seasons now.

Smalling - 4th season.

De Gea - 3rd season.

Jones - 3rd season.

That's was a transition years ago.

That hasn't even been that impressive. The only thing thats been impressive this season is Januzaj.

About as impressive as Sterling if you get real. That's how bad Utd have been.

The impressive thing at Utd is just how much Rooney is carrying the team.

[TheGayTent]

Shall we not just wait until May to see who is right?

[eFestivals]

Aren't Norwich the only team Man U has thrashed?

Does a one-nil win class as "thrashed" for Utd nowadays? PMSL.

They've had decent-ish scorelines against Swansea, Fulham, and Villa, tho often (perhaps all, I forget) trhe scoreline has flattered Utd for how they've played.

I'd actually thought they'd been doing better with the goals than they have been doing. I'm quite shocked for how bad the results are now I've refreshed my memory by googling.

[eFestivals]

Shall we not just wait until May to see who is right?

I'm quite happy to.

I'm really really surprised at just how insistant some people are beiong about Utd tho ... it takes a lot of bottle (and a fair amount of stupidity ) to be backing them with such strong words as some have done here.

If they scrape themselves a reasonable finishing position it'll be more luck (or signings) than the sorts of judgements some are making.

[TheGayTent]

I think he laid the groundwork extremely well, and kind of got a rough deal being sacked imo - as turning a club round like City to the super-elite team they are now does take time and patience.

I reckon if you'd given Mancini another £100m to buy players like Negredo, Fernandinho, Navas, Jovetic etc then they'd probably have as many points as they do now and cruised through that Champions League group like they did. Maybe they'd have been a bit more defensive about it though.

[kaosmark2]

Does a one-nil win class as "thrashed" for Utd nowadays? PMSL.

They've had decent-ish scorelines against Swansea, Fulham, and Villa, tho often (perhaps all, I forget) trhe scoreline has flattered Utd for how they've played.

I'd actually thought they'd been doing better with the goals than they have been doing. I'm quite shocked for how bad the results are now I've refreshed my memory by googling.

[The Nal]

PMSL

Rafael has played regularly for 6 seasons now.

[eFestivals]

I'm not going to bother if you're going to post lies to suit your agenda. Regularly for 6 seasons? Hes only played 81 games for Utd and is still only 23. Hardly "played regularly" when a single season has maybe 60 odd games. Hes played in less than a quarter of the games? A a lot as sub. "Regularly"? Nonsense.

He's been playing for the first team for 6 seasons - no lie.

League matches:-

2008–09 16

2009–10 8

2010–11 16

2011–12 12

2012–13 28

2013–14 6

The low ones? Injuries!

It's hardly feckin' irregular, is it?

Apart from Rafael, none of the others have played over 80 games for the club and are all under 24.

If you want to look it at that way then 80% of the teams in the league are permanently "in transition", and most of those are far more "in transition" than Utd are.

So how exactly are they in transition, when it's all the same players this season (bar the newest diver) that won them the league last season?

(if you want to mention the oldies that are getting few kicks this season or have now left, they were playing less than the 'newbies' last season so by your method they don't get to count).

Jordan Henderson has been given consistent game time at LFC and hes the new Zidane now going by your posts. Time to develop. All part of a transition.

Get out of here.

The only thing i've been bigging up about him is just how much better he is when Gerrard isn't playing.

Yep, he's still developing but developing as a top 4 player as demonstrated by him being in a team in the top 4.

Really, which of Cleverley, Jones, Smalling, and Evans are going to be proper top-4 players? They only just about scrape thru as squad players for a team like Utd, and apart from perhaps Smalling I can't see that changing.

If Mata signs the front four will be Januzaj, Mata, Rooney and Van Persie. Get all them playing and its a totally different team.

I hate ( ) to point it out but that's a less good front line than S&S, Coutinho & Sterling.

Plus teams will still walk thru the middle just as so many teams have done all season.

For a "totally different team" you need a midfield and a defence. Until you get them, you're in BIG trouble!

Edited January 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

I hate ( ) to point it out but that's a less good front line than S&S, Coutinho & Sterling.

[pink_triangle]

erm, there are you know.

When you play well you win more games than when you play poorly. That's no less true now than when fergie was winning title after title by playing badly - which worked mostly because there weren't many other decent teams. This is why playing even more badly now is not working for them.

Utd are playing poorly, and their league position shows how poorly they've been playing. What part of that has passed you by?

It does make me laugh how the often said "the league position doesn't lie" goes out of the window when it gets applied to Man Utd when they're on their arse.

[LondonTom]

Mancini's claiming credit for City's current success:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25836477

Yes he did build part of that team, but Fernandinho and Negredo?

[pink_triangle]

Liverpool's midfield is horrifically imbalanced. Horrifically. Moses/Coutinho/Sterling all do the same role, and you can only have one of them in the team if you're playing 2 strikers. Henderson's best role is the one Gerrard wants, and he's crap when doing owt else. Allen's a perfectly servicable mid-table ball-retention mid, but he's comparable to Cleverley.

[pink_triangle]

I'm quite happy to.

I'm really really surprised at just how insistant some people are beiong about Utd tho ... it takes a lot of bottle (and a fair amount of stupidity ) to be backing them with such strong words as some have done here.

If they scrape themselves a reasonable finishing position it'll be more luck (or signings) than the sorts of judgements some are making.

[eFestivals]

I'm not trying to claim that S&S, Coutinho & Sterling are the world's best forward line, merely that as a combination there's more to them than Rooney, RVP, the new diver, and Mata.

But hey, if Utd get Mata, we can settle this with a simple goals scored per-minute total for when all four are on the pitch for both teams.

Utd might have a better forward line with those four once they tighten up the middle, but not before then.

[eFestivals]

The reason Gerrard was so shit first half against villa cos they went 4 4 2 so Liverpool were outnumbered in midfield.

No, it was cos Gerrard can't tackle. He's never been able to tackle. He's not a defensive midfielder.

If Lucas had been on the pitch instead, it would have been very very different. They might have been a bit thin in the middle still, but they wouldn't have been over-run in anything like the same way.

At least in that match Rodgers realised it wasn't going to work for them, but i've got a big worry that he'll try it again - and if he does, it stands a good chance of costing them a top 4 place.

(Fair play to Gerrard, who put in a great 2nd half, one of his best this season. Without that I'm not sure he'd have got to play much more for the rest of the season).

[thetime]

At least in that match Rodgers realised it wasn't going to work for them, but i've got a big worry that he'll try it again.

[kaosmark2]

I'm not trying to claim that S&S, Coutinho & Sterling are the world's best forward line, merely that as a combination there's more to them than Rooney, RVP, the new diver, and Mata.

But hey, if Utd get Mata, we can settle this with a simple goals scored per-minute total for when all four are on the pitch for both teams.

Utd might have a better forward line with those four once they tighten up the middle, but not before then.

[eFestivals]

I just think there is a difference in opinion on the turnaround needed to change the positions in the top 4.

the turnaround is already there for anyone to see.

So why are so few seeing it?

When Arsenal have come storming thru in the last couple of seasons they've started off slowly and clearly got better as the season has gone on. There's nothing similar to that on show at Utd, in fact there's the opposite, a draining away of belief - as seen by how they've given up after 70 minutes in more than one match.

Anyone who thinks that Utd are capable of doing similar this season is working from a belief of the past and not what can be seen on the pitch rat any point thru the season to date.

You think everton and Liverpool have been significantly better than man utd, others think the margin is slight.

I'm not convinced yet by Everton, so I wouldn't have included them in that line. I wouldn't be too surprised if they fade, tho I wouldn't be too surprised if they improve either. On the basis that I'm not sure if it's temporary or not, I wouldn't have included them in words like those.

And i'm not entirely sure that I'd use the words 'significantly better' for Liverpool either*. They are better - visibly better - but 'significantly' perhaps suggests a bigger difference than there is. But, undoubtedly, up to this point they've been better.

(* tho I wouldn't be too surprised if I've used those exact words; don't hang me for it. They'd have been used in a more casual way than the properly considered view i'm giving here now).

As I said yesterday, I can see one or more of Spurs, Everton & Liverpool fading enough for Utd to over-take them; I can - perhaps - see Utd's form being better for the remainder of the season (tho that's based on history and not what their on-field performances are suggesting).

But what I can't see is Utd's form suddenly being for the rest of the season at the same level as Arsenal's form has been across all of the season so far - which is what Utd would need to get top 4. It just ain't going to happen (with everything as it stands right now; transfers might change that).

Edited January 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Why you worried? You don't support Liverpool or so you keep saying anyway.

It's an expression.

Liverpool's aim is top 4. They're on target to do that, unless Rodgers is a scared-of-Gerrard numpty.

Rodgers has already realised that there's better going-forwards midfielders he can use, which is precisely why he played Gerrard where he did at the weekend.

To be sure of top 4 he has to be prepared to not play Gerrard on occasions, because he can field a better team without him.

Edited January 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I think Sterling and Januzai are of comparable quality and consistency. Suarez is better than either Rooney or RVP, but both of them are better than Sturridge. OK S&S combine better (although that's not saying RVP + Rooney combine badly), but what you're saying is they combine so much better as to outdo the difference in quality between Countinho and Mata, something I think is laughable.

I'd say S&S are a fair chunk better than Rooney and RVP have ever managed together (and the stats bear that out HUGELY!) - which is why I get the four L'pool players to add up to a greater sum than the four (if they get Mata) Utd players.

I wasn't suggesting Coutinho is better than Mata. He's not. But he's not so far away either - give him another year.

I'd far prefer Man U didn't get it, I think the league will be much more exciting long term if there's variation between who's in top 4, and I still really dislike Man U and Moyes. I just disagree with Neil's assessment of the situation.

I'm assessing on form, performances and results. You're assessing by history.

Yes, we've all been caught out before by Utd, so I get why some are just so reluctant to write them off ... but just look at the facts!!! If they perform on average from now until the end of the season as they did last season they'll just about scrape top 4.

Why does anyone think those players can perform now as they did last season?

What are they doing to make you think they're going to do that? This is the question that you avoid addressing.

[zahidf]

I think if they get Mata and one more good midfielder, they will be in with a chance for Top 4. Liverpool are the nearest rivals to it, i don't think Spurs or Everton realistically are.

[eFestivals]

I think if they get Mata and one more good midfielder, they will be in with a chance for Top 4.

Even with those it's going to be exceedingly hard for them to do it. It would take other teams above them fucking up as well, because they're just not going to hit the title-winning form they'd need to do it by themselves.

As i've said, I can see perhaps two of the three teams above them fucking up, but I can't see all three doing so.

But all three fucking up is still more likely than Utd hitting the form they'd need to do by their own efforts.

[Bobs]

Mancini's claiming credit for City's current success:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25836477

Yes he did build part of that team, but Fernandinho and Negredo?

[eFestivals]

Also. Mata to United? I'm surprised, why would he want to go to United? Why would Chelsea sell to United?

Both of these, especially as Utd won't let Chelsea have Rooney.

There's a fair amount of stuff that suggests the Mata thing is just paper talk, because a few days ago there was stuff supposedly coming out of Utd about a £80M transfer fund, but that "they wouldn't change the way they buy only talented youngsters and not marquee signings". If that's really true then Mata wouldn't be on the radar, or would only be on the radar if there's big panic at OT.

But for Mata, why? If he stays at Chelsea he's guaranteed to be on the plane to Brazil, while there's big risks to that if he goes to Utd and doesn't cause them to raise their game - and given how almost everyone thinks he's not the first type of player they're needing, that might be what happens.