Football 2013-2014

[pink_triangle]

Wins is not form, tho it can be an indication of form. In this case it's not.

They might have been winning, but their play has been almost exclusively (for them) poor. They won't pick up the wins they'd need thru to the end of the season for top 4 if they keep playing in the same manner.

You look at the table, and see what they'd be needing to do. You then look at the team and consider whether they're capable of doing it.

And they're not. They're just not.

I can only think that you've seen almost none of their games, or that if you've seen highlights the editing has been done to flatter Utd.

There's a few good players but as a team they're an empty vessel.

[eFestivals]

there are no extra points given for playing well.

erm, there are you know.

When you play well you win more games than when you play poorly. That's no less true now than when fergie was winning title after title by playing badly - which worked mostly because there weren't many other decent teams. This is why playing even more badly now is not working for them.

Utd are playing poorly, and their league position shows how poorly they've been playing. What part of that has passed you by?

It does make me laugh how the often said "the league position doesn't lie" goes out of the window when it gets applied to Man Utd when they're on their arse.

Edited January 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[thetime]

It does make me laugh how the often said "the league position doesn't lie" goes out of the window when it gets applied to Man Utd when they're on their arse.

Edited January 22, 2014 by thetime

[eFestivals]

You have said for years that the league position is not a true reflection, or are you backtracking?

League position is not necessarily an indication of a team's strength at any particular time, but it is how their form is across the period of a season - that's what I've said. If you're thinking differently, that's your error.

That aside, care to tell us all of what strengths more than the teams above them Utd have right now that are not being reflected in their league position?

A reasonable argument could be made to suggest Utd are better than Spurs, yes, but aside from Spurs? Better than Everton? Nope. Better than Liverpool? No. Etc, etc, etc.

If you took Rooney and RVP out of that squad I have little doubts that they'd currently be a 'bottom 12' that risk relegation and not merely a bottom 11.

Meanwhile, from the teams above Utd you could take any two players out of their squads and they wouldn't drop as far.

[thetime]

Are you saying if Liverpool took suarez and sturridge out of the Liverpool side they wouldn't struggle?

[eFestivals]

Are you saying if Liverpool took suarez and sturridge out of the Liverpool side they wouldn't struggle?

Nope - they'd of course be a far weaker team across a number of games (said like that cos it's always possible for any team to raise their game for single games - as Liverpool have managed to do on the occasions both of S&S have been out of the team, while Utd are pretty much nothing without R&R).

But without those two and Utd without potato head & RVP, Liverpool are undoubtedly the better team of players* - cos they have a defence and a midfield.

(* I've said 'better', note that I haven't said 'fantastically better').

None of that is dismissing that it's possible for a fergie to wring every last bit out of some not-fantastic players.... but there isn't a fergie any more, and that's why it's not happening now.

Edited January 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[thetime]

as Liverpool have managed to do on the occasions both of S&S have been out of the team

[The Nal]

West Ham were robbed. The deserved it over the two legs.

[kaosmark2]

Liverpool's midfield is horrifically imbalanced. Horrifically. Moses/Coutinho/Sterling all do the same role, and you can only have one of them in the team if you're playing 2 strikers. Henderson's best role is the one Gerrard wants, and he's crap when doing owt else. Allen's a perfectly servicable mid-table ball-retention mid, but he's comparable to Cleverley.

Man U have half their squad out of form performance-wise and yet have a comparable points total. Liverpool have virtually their entire team playing at peak performance and haven't pulled away.

I really don't think there's anything between them.

[eFestivals]

As we are talking this season can you tell me which premier league games have Suarez and Sturridge both been out?

as far as I'm aware, they haven't. But it happened last season, and people said they wouldn't score - yet they still banged them in (I think the goals per game were higher than the season's average, tho I could be wrong with that).

With out Rooney and RVP Man United are a mid table side, the same as Liverpool without Suarez and Sturridge. They are the only 2 teams that rely on there strikers so much, you can't say the same about City/Chelsea/Spurs/Everton/Arsenal.

I agree that they're the only higher clubs that rely on their strikers so much - tho that has more to do with the overall weakness of both team's squads than anything else. After the first 11 they're both pretty bare of quality players.

And I agree that they're both around midtable without those strikers - but there's more strength around the remainder of Liverpool's squad than there is Utd's, so I'd see Liverpool pipping Utd by a place or four (it's all so tight towards the bottom that minor differences can be quite a few places different in the league positions).

But anyway, it's not the hypotheticals I'm interested in, it's the realities - and no matter how much Utd fans don't want to admit they're being bettered by Liverpool, that's what's happening and will still be the case at the end of the season (barring the unexpected for Liverpool, and a huge uplift for Utd via Mata if they buy him - not something I expect to happen; as I've said, I think Mata is too lightweight a player for what Utd need right now).

[zahidf]

I'm not sure what would be funnier: Utd losin tonight in the semi finals, or losing the in the finals in Wembley to Man City. I'll go for the finals, just because it gives them extra hope, and an extra game.

I still think Man Utd signing Mata could be a mistake from Jose. It will give them a boost, and would help them get players next season.

Man Utd fans are being like Liverpool fans were a few years ago around when King Kenny was around...:-)

[thetime]

as far as I'm aware, they haven't. But it happened last season, and people said they wouldn't score - yet they still banged them in (I think the goals per game were higher than the season's average, tho I could be wrong with that).

[eFestivals]

Liverpool's midfield is horrifically imbalanced. Horrifically. Moses/Coutinho/Sterling all do the same role, and you can only have one of them in the team if you're playing 2 strikers.

I'm not sure i've seen all of those three players on the field at the same time. Have they been?

They've almost constantly had two of those players in the team (Moses doesn't get much of a kick, cos he's nowhere near as good as Chelsea thought, or L'pool thought when they took him on loan )), and their league position doesn't say they're horrifically imbalanced.

If you're thinking about the 1st half at the weekend, Liverpool being shit was zilch to do with those players and everything to do with Gerrard not being a defensive midfielder.

Henderson's best role is the one Gerrard wants, and he's crap when doing owt else.

Not quite correct. He's pretty good in whichever role he has - as long as Gerrard isn't on the field. For whatever reason he turns to (comparative) shit if Gerrard is there too.

Hendo is turning into quite a player when he's given the opportunity to play his way - he's been clocking up some fantastic assists lately.

Allen's a perfectly servicable mid-table ball-retention mid, but he's comparable to Cleverley.

Hmmm, not sure I agree. Allen's form has been up and down, but at his best he brings more control to the middle than I've ever seen of not-Cleverley. Cleverley does get a few goals tho.

But anyway, Cleverley is an almost-constant, and Allen is an almost-always-absent - which surely gets to show that Utd are scraping the bottom of the barrel more-so than Liverpool?

Man U have half their squad out of form performance-wise and yet have a comparable points total. Liverpool have virtually their entire team playing at peak performance and haven't pulled away.

I really don't think there's anything between them.

But Utd are a settled squad, whilst Liverpool are still learning to play together, and as time goes by you can see the Liverpool players starting to click with each other more and more. There's no signs of any improvements at Utd, if anything it's going the other way. Utd have been exceedingly lucky that they've had a decent kid in the background who has improved them no end over where they'd otherwise be.

I really don't think there's anything between them.

There's 6 points between them right now.

At the end of the season - if everything remains equal (no disasters for either, & no squad-changing transfers) - it'll be 4 points or more.

If Utd get Mata and he works for them (as I've said, I have my doubts) there'll never be a clearer case of a team buying their finishing position.

-

[thetime]

Man Utd fans are being like Liverpool fans were a few years ago around when King Kenny was around...:-)

[eFestivals]

I'm not sure it happened last season either.

By wiki Suarez played 33 league games last season, 4 of the games he missed was at the end of the season and sturridge played in all of them.

So if wiki is accurate that just leaves 1 game.

there was one game last season where they scored 4 without both S&S on the pitch - tho it might have been before Sturridge arrived (from memory, I think it was in December some time).

People like you (maybe not specifically you) were posting back then that they wouldn't score without Suarez, but they really didn't have a problem. When they weren't focusing on what Suarez could do for them, it gave the players extra scope for their own games.

[eFestivals]

You mean not winning the title for 20+ years?

wasn't it 30+ years?

[thetime]

wasn't it 30+ years?

[eFestivals]

there was one game last season where they scored 4 without both S&S on the pitch - tho it might have been before Sturridge arrived (from memory, I think it was in December some time).

People like you (maybe not specifically you) were posting back then that they wouldn't score without Suarez, but they really didn't have a problem. When they weren't focusing on what Suarez could do for them, it gave the players extra scope for their own games.

Hmmm .... just had a quick scan of last season's results, and can't see the match i'm thinking of, so perhaps it was the previous season.

The point is that people keep saying that Liverpool will struggle without Suarez, and yet him being out of the team on occasion has made no noticeable difference to how they've gone.

[eFestivals]

PS: for last season - when Utd were going well, don't forget!! - it appears that Liverpool have more goals from more of the rest of the team than do Man Utd.

http://lfcstats.co.uk/20122013goalscorers.html

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/manchester-united-2012-2013-statistics/

(don't forget, Sturridge only had 1/2 a season).

[LondonTom]

West Ham were robbed. The deserved it over the two legs.

Edited January 22, 2014 by LondonTom

[kaosmark2]

I'm not sure i've seen all of those three players on the field at the same time. Have they been?

They've almost constantly had two of those players in the team (Moses doesn't get much of a kick, cos he's nowhere near as good as Chelsea thought, or L'pool thought when they took him on loan )), and their league position doesn't say they're horrifically imbalanced.

[kaosmark2]

Mancini's claiming credit for City's current success:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25836477

Yes he did build part of that team, but Fernandinho and Negredo?

[jammy2211]

Mancini's claiming credit for City's current success:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25836477

Yes he did build part of that team, but Fernandinho and Negredo?

[eFestivals]

Pre-Suarez return and post-Sturridge injury they have. They've gone with 2 a number of times when both S&S have played and been completely dominated in midfield.

what?

They've been bettered. I've not seen them "dominated" in any game when both S&S have been on the field.

I'm thinking over the last 12 months. Henderson's been shit in a few games where Gerrard hasn't been playing

I can't think of any occasion that's happened since Kenny was given the boot.

The difference in Hendo when Gerrard isn't on the field has been astounding.

I think Cleverley's shit, but to suggest that he has zero use, or that Man U aren't a team in transition is naive.

Cleverley is a squad player at best in a decent Utd squad.

Transitions happen when changes to the squad happens. Care to point out the massive changes in the Utd squad to make them a team in transition?

Currently they're a team on the slide. If/when they get some more players in, only then are they are a team in transition.

Not much change to the squad maybe, but the change of manager + aging of key personnel is far more severe than any changes Liverpool have made over the past 18 months.

Yes, they're having severe effects on Utd, but that severe effect is a an effect of (poor) choice, and is causing them to slide. There's nothing that that squad of players has to learn, apart from how to play well (something they once knew how to do).

Players learning to play well together is a completely different thing to players turning to shite.

Both Man U AND Moyes have a history of better form in the second half of the season.

but neither have a history of that much of an upturn in form.

In recent years there's not been that upturn in form. The only time you can fool yourself that's what happened was when City turned to shit, not when Utd played better.

Add in increasing understanding between players and manager and I think it's a fair bet that they'll improve to close the gap on Liverpool. Whether it'll be 6 points I don't know, and whether they improve enough to overtake Everton and Spurs as well I don't know, but I'd be very surprised if Man U finish lower than 5th.

Thing is, what's "closing the gap"? What gap? The eight point gap (or was it greater?) that there's been this season, the two points gap that there's been, or the 6 points gap that there is now?

To say they'll "close the gap" you first have to say which gap. The gap is transitory in any week.

Care to tell me what the "increasing understanding between players and manager" is? ... is that when Moyes admits on TV he doesn't have a fucking clue and that the crowd is picking the team? Or is it when he picks Young over other better players? Is it when they give up after 70 minutes, as has happened in a number of games this season? Etc, etc, etc

I can't see any evidence of any "increasing understanding between players and manager". All evidence says the complete opposite, that the players have no faith in anything that Moyes is doing.

Lots of those goals were meaningless though. Turning 3-0s into 5-1s against rubbish teams isn't particularly significant unless it looks like GD comes into play. Liverpool's midfielders don't score important goals.

Funnily enough, this season I know another team just like that.

Which is precisely why I know they're going nowhere. The only thing that's been impressive about them this season (aside from Rooney the one-man team) are the scorelines against some of the weak teams.

Edited January 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

Funnily enough, this season I know another team just like that.

Which is precisely why I know they're going nowhere. The only thing that's been impressive about them this season (aside from Rooney the one-man team) are the scorelines against some of the weak teams.