The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I'm not sure that is true. The most recent CAA figures (September) show an annual passenger numbers dropping by nearly 37% and number of flights dropping by around 40%. It seems the relocation of some Ryanair flights from Prestwick to Gatwick are really biting. 

 

AIRPORT	NO_FLTS_THIS_M	PERC_FLTS_MNTH	NO_FLTS_THIS_Y	PERC_FLTS_YEAR	TRM_PAX_THIS_M	PERC_PAX_MNTH	TRM_PAX_THIS_Y	PERC_PAX_YEAR
PRESTWICK	469	-34.2	4436	-40.1	73123	-30.7	636114	-36.9

 

No one is disputing that the number of flights in & out of Prestwick has dropped which is why it needs government support. The point I was making was around passenger numbers overall. Total UK air passengers increased by 4.3% between 2013 & 2014 (http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/recent-airport-figures/) With this sort of increase it gives the lie to Neil's claim that by bailing out Prestwick the Scottish Government are effectively stealing passengers from elsewhere.

 

As I have said elsewhere, I am far from certain that they will be able to turn Prestwick around. My issue as usual is with Neil's portrayal of the decision as the Scottish Government robbing from the poor. It's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[eFestivals]

 

My issue as usual is with Neil's portrayal of the decision as the Scottish Government robbing from the poor. It's a bit more complicated than that.

 

yep, it is. At least you got something right for once.

Tory tax cuts for the rich baaaad, SNP tax cuts for the rich good.

Identity politics instead of principled politics.

I guess it's only the SNP who could ever create a benefit for the poor by cutting taxes for the rich. That's something that's clearly beyond the policies of all other parties. It must be because of their super-special-Scottishness. You know, Scottish exceptionalism.

Edited November 4, 2015 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

Like this?

 

You realise this post has made me use up a like, which could have been used to downgrade another Poetrychatbore poem!

[LJS]

just posting this to annoy Neil...

 

Out of 5,000 choices Nicola Sturgeon is the most popular and widely appreciated living person among the Scottish public ‒ four places ahead of the Queen

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/01/nicola-sturgeon-scotlands-most-popular-person/

[eFestivals]

Yep, and Scottish votes caused Michelle McManus win Pop Idol.

[gary1979666]

Yep, and Scottish votes caused Michelle McManus win Pop Idol.

Neil, you're meant to hold the big guns back until the next indy ref!!!

[russycarps]

I see saudi arabia has announced it has no intention of shutting off the spigots for the foreseeable future.

http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/AN_1447051318676150100/press-saudi-arabia-has-no-plan-to-cut-oil-production---ft.aspx

According to the raving nationalists in this thread oil prices will be back to "normal" of $100bbl+ by March 2016. Wait and see! Wait and see! I recall them squealing in September last year.

Not far off now is it...presumably prices will start rising any day now, despite production being at record highs and demand still in decline. Afterall, the raving nationalists know best.

 

Edited November 9, 2015 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

I see the SNP have gone against what they've previously said - again - and against the ideas of both independence and a federal UK structure (which they apparently want as second-best, tho they never actually put forwards an idea for it), by wanting Scottish laws for English people.

It's not all about them-them-them, oh no.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/09/snp-set-to-block-loosening-of-sunday-trading-restrictions

PS: where's the new Scottish foxhunting law? They seem to have forgotten all about it, like they're liars or something.

 

[gary1979666]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I see the SNP have gone against what they've previously said - again - and against the ideas of both independence and a federal UK structure (which they apparently want as second-best, tho they never actually put forwards an idea for it), by wanting Scottish laws for English people.

It's not all about them-them-them, oh no.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/09/snp-set-to-block-loosening-of-sunday-trading-restrictions

PS: where's the new Scottish foxhunting law? They seem to have forgotten all about it, like they're liars or something.

 

I can't imagine why the Tory scaremongering at election-time worked!

I guess the question is, can Scotland change its own trading laws by itself.  If so they either should give those powers back, as what Scotland does could similarly impact rUK workers, or they stay the hell away.  It does smell very much about having your cake and eating it. Surely, in principle, something is devolved or it's not.  Plays into the hands of EVEL.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

I can't imagine why the Tory scaremongering at election-time worked!

I guess the question is, can Scotland change its own trading laws by itself.  If so they either should give those powers back, as what Scotland does could similarly impact rUK workers, or they stay the hell away.  It does smell very much about having your cake and eating it. Surely, in principle, something is devolved or it's not.  Plays into the hands of EVEL.

Yep, Scotland has devolved powers over trading laws (the Scottish trading laws have always been different, as I got to find out when I worked for a big retailer before any devolution).

So yes, it's just another opportunity the SNP have taken to try and drive the wedge that bit deeper.

Their justification for it is the me-me-me bollocks they always use... tho I'm highly amused that they're in-essence stating that independence for Scotland would lead to a race to the bottom.

 

[eFestivals]

oooo, and lookie .... that 'nothing' that didn't count unless reported on various BBC pages (which it was, but it still remained 'nothing' in the eyes of the free-passers) is now being investigated by Audit Scotland ... which I think is fair enough given that the grant was awarded without the financial reports being read and no business case being studied.

I guess that some will now be complaining to the SG that Audit Scotlland should be waving stuff like this thru on the basis that it's been done by the infallible SNP, and not wasting their time by doing their job.

http://news.stv.tv/tayside/1332297-public-spending-watchdog-to-investigate-150000-t-in-the-park-grant/

"It was clear from the Education and Culture Committee evidence sessions that MSPs remained unhappy about the lack of evidence to support a clear cut business case for the award and about the lack of detailed information regarding how the money was spent."

"Audit Scotland must now be allowed to pursue matters to provide the level of scrutiny which has been absent from the Scottish Government."

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

9 hours ago, gary1979666 said:

I can't imagine why the Tory scaremongering at election-time worked!

I guess the question is, can Scotland change its own trading laws by itself.  If so they either should give those powers back, as what Scotland does could similarly impact rUK workers, or they stay the hell away.  It does smell very much about having your cake and eating it. Surely, in principle, something is devolved or it's not.  Plays into the hands of EVEL.

Aye Scotland has control over our own trading laws. We should be grateful 

The SNP are very much in favour of Sunday trading. As I understand it, IF the Tories had included something in the amendments around protecting workers rights / pay then they would NOT have threatened to vote against. Robertson was at number 10 this morning to discuss ( perhaps this ) but mostly the Tory plans to change the Trade Union Bill. This could again impact on workers rights / pay. The SNP ain`t happy about the lowest paid workers getting a worse deal. 

This may well ring a bell after them always voting against the Welfare Reform and Tax Credit stuff. None of them abstained at any point and the lowest paid workers in Scotland ( and perhaps across the UK ) see them as standing up for them ( part of the politics of course ).

On the Sunday trading there were also some Tories who would have voted against so it appears to have been shelved. Same shelf that the fox hunting in England plans sit on after the SNP chose to get involved in that.

NS doesn`t like what she sees as the Tories eroding workers rights on strike action so expect the SNP to get involved in that as well I reckon.

" We " voted to be part of the UK and here we are playing our part  

I accept that as a Tory, you will see them as a pain in the arse. 

 

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

oooo, and lookie .... that 'nothing' that didn't count unless reported on various BBC pages (which it was, but it still remained 'nothing' in the eyes of the free-passers) is now being investigated by Audit Scotland ... which I think is fair enough given that the grant was awarded without the financial reports being read and no business case being studied.

I guess that some will now be complaining to the SG that Audit Scotlland should be waving stuff like this thru on the basis that it's been done by the infallible SNP, and not wasting their time by doing their job.

 

 

On 03/11/2015, 14:10:51, eFestivals said:

 

 Audit Scotland is either run by numpties or it's taking no account of overall effect and doing a 'fuck everyone else, only  Scotland is important' thing.

 

  Audit Scotland swiftly from zero to hero.

I suppose I might as well point out again that I don`t agree with T in the Park being a priority for tax coinage when there are plenty more worthy causes. I do remain in favour of the support given to T in the Park, not to mention other music and arts stuff, over many years by Govts run by different political parties.

The Herald already spoke to Geoff and I don`t know why audit scotland didn`t a while ago. Then you can move your efforts onto something else SNP related. I think it was Geoff who pointed out they had plenty of support in different areas over the years from different parties.

Edited November 10, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Talking about T in the park......

They advised that a limited number of day tickets would be on sale last Friday as part of the Stone Roses announcement. No day tickets were sold and they are now available on Viagogo for £150 ?

Can we call on Audit Scotland ( or anyone ) to look into this ?

If not.......is that Salmond to blame 

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[eFestivals]

26 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

  Audit Scotland swiftly from zero to hero.

I suppose I might as well point out again that I don`t agree with T in the Park being a priority for tax coinage when there are plenty more worthy causes. I do remain in favour of the support given to T in the Park, not to mention other music and arts stuff, over many years by Govts run by different political parties.

The Herald already spoke to Geoff and I don`t know why audit scotland didn`t a while ago. Then you can move your efforts onto something else SNP related. I think it was Geoff who pointed out they had plenty of support in different areas over the years from different parties.

Do I really have to point out again that the issue isn't about t being granted money, but the abnormal process via which it was granted money?

Ffs.

[Comfy Bean]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Do I really have to point out again that the issue isn't about t being granted money, but the abnormal process via which it was granted money?

Ffs.

No you do not. You have made that quite clear. We can all look forward to the report from Audit Scotland. 

From your post above you already appear to have made your own mind up. Some would say you make a habit of this where the SNP are involved 

You appear slightly less concerned with the actions of Scottish Labour or the Libs but I`m sure you have your reasons.

[LJS]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

oooo, and lookie .... that 'nothing' that didn't count unless reported on various BBC pages (which it was, but it still remained 'nothing' in the eyes of the free-passers) is now being investigated by Audit Scotland ... which I think is fair enough given that the grant was awarded without the financial reports being read and no business case being studied.

I guess that some will now be complaining to the SG that Audit Scotlland should be waving stuff like this thru on the basis that it's been done by the infallible SNP, and not wasting their time by doing their job.

http://news.stv.tv/tayside/1332297-public-spending-watchdog-to-investigate-150000-t-in-the-park-grant/

"It was clear from the Education and Culture Committee evidence sessions that MSPs remained unhappy about the lack of evidence to support a clear cut business case for the award and about the lack of detailed information regarding how the money was spent."

"Audit Scotland must now be allowed to pursue matters to provide the level of scrutiny which has been absent from the Scottish Government."

 

& if audit Scotland find the Scottish Government acted wrongly, I will join you in condemning that. I assume if they find they acted correctly you will equally accept that?

 

And what about attributing the quote that forms the final 2 paragraphs of your post? I presume that was an omission & not another cheap attempt to smear the SNP.

 

The sad thing is that you are creaming your pants over what is , at worst, a minor misdemeanor from the SNP, whilst cheering on the Tories in their continued upwards redistribution of wealth. 

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

No you do not. You have made that quite clear. We can all look forward to the report from Audit Scotland. 

From your post above you already appear to have made your own mind up. Some would say you make a habit of this where the SNP are involved 

You appear slightly less concerned with the actions of Scottish Labour or the Libs but I`m sure you have your reasons.

I've made my mind up that the process was abnomal, yes - as already proven to the SG.

FFS.

The process was done incompetently and outside of the rules. This has been admitted by Hyslop who dished out the money without having read the paperwork which might have (or not) justified her dishing out that money.

Scottish Labour and the LibDems are fuck all to do with this. They're not the party of govt, and they're not the ones who acted improperly. I'm quite happy to criticise any party or individuals who who don't act as they should.

I want good govt from any party that's in govt. In this instance the SNP have governed badly. It's already proven beyond doubt.

Corruption hasn't been proven - and perhaps it wasn't corrupt (I've never claimed it was, just that what happened raises suspicions) - but that doesn't absolve Hyslop from not following the rules of govt regarding grants of money.

Free money without justification for profitable companies and free passes for breaking the rules. Welcome to the new more-accountable better-governed Scotland.

Edited November 11, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

& if audit Scotland find the Scottish Government acted wrongly, I will join you in condemning that. I assume if they find they acted correctly you will equally accept that?

 

And what about attributing the quote that forms the final 2 paragraphs of your post? I presume that was an omission & not another cheap attempt to smear the SNP.

 

The sad thing is that you are creaming your pants over what is , at worst, a minor misdemeanor from the SNP, whilst cheering on the Tories in their continued upwards redistribution of wealth. 

 

You do know that it's already been proven in the SG's committee hearings that the Scottish Govt acted wrongly, don't you?

So i'm wondering why you've yet to condemn them. Might it be because they've still got a million free passes that you gave them?

Attributed or not, those two paras are factually true as revealed from Hyslop's own gob, when she admitted not having read the paperwork before granting the money and that she'd not asked T (as required) to say how the money was spent ... but apparently I'm in the wrong for mentioning it?

The sad thing is not me highlighting a minor abuse of process, it's the fact that you believe Scotland is better governed by the Scottish public like you not giving a fuck about abuse of process just because that abuse of process is from your heroes carrying the free passes you've given them.

[gary1979666]

13 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Aye Scotland has control over our own trading laws. We should be grateful 

The SNP are very much in favour of Sunday trading. As I understand it, IF the Tories had included something in the amendments around protecting workers rights / pay then they would NOT have threatened to vote against. Robertson was at number 10 this morning to discuss ( perhaps this ) but mostly the Tory plans to change the Trade Union Bill. This could again impact on workers rights / pay. The SNP ain`t happy about the lowest paid workers getting a worse deal. 

This may well ring a bell after them always voting against the Welfare Reform and Tax Credit stuff. None of them abstained at any point and the lowest paid workers in Scotland ( and perhaps across the UK ) see them as standing up for them ( part of the politics of course ).

On the Sunday trading there were also some Tories who would have voted against so it appears to have been shelved. Same shelf that the fox hunting in England plans sit on after the SNP chose to get involved in that.

NS doesn`t like what she sees as the Tories eroding workers rights on strike action so expect the SNP to get involved in that as well I reckon.

" We " voted to be part of the UK and here we are playing our part  

I accept that as a Tory, you will see them as a pain in the arse. 

 

Nah, I'd be peeved if they we voting against a Labour bill too.  Thing is this has nothing to do with the contents of the bill.  Personally, I don't see why the Tesco round the corner can't be open the same hours on a Sunday as it is on a Sat.  Not sure why someone working a Sun should get paid more than one working a Sat.

To me it kinda goes against the point of devolution.  Scotland has it's parliament to decide certain matters, so to me, it makes sense that when the rest of the UK are discussing the same matters, then Scottish MPs (including the 3  non-SNP ones) step back.  

I seem to remember the SNP saying they would do something like that in the past, but those words now seem forgotten.  Given that under independence they would have no say at all on these things, it seems a tad hypocritical (granted they don't have the monopoly on that in politics).

 

 

[russycarps]

here's some happy news for the raving nationalists

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/10/iea-oil-idUKL8N13438120151110

oil prices likely to stay close to $50bbl until 2020, and wont return to $85bbl until 2040. "Lower for longer" is the new mantra.

"Let's wait and see where we are in March 2016!" the raving nationalists cried.  

And yet STILL they wont condemn the white paper. 

Let's just take a moment to thank the brave 55% for defying the threats from the raving nationalists and saving scotland - and more importantly the poor of scotland - from economic ruin. 

Oh wait a minute, I forgot, the financial implications of independence are "irrelevant" arent they.

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

29 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Nah, I'd be peeved if they we voting against a Labour bill too.  Thing is this has nothing to do with the contents of the bill.  Personally, I don't see why the Tesco round the corner can't be open the same hours on a Sunday as it is on a Sat.  Not sure why someone working a Sun should get paid more than one working a Sat.

To me it kinda goes against the point of devolution.  Scotland has it's parliament to decide certain matters, so to me, it makes sense that when the rest of the UK are discussing the same matters, then Scottish MPs (including the 3  non-SNP ones) step back.  

I seem to remember the SNP saying they would do something like that in the past, but those words now seem forgotten.  Given that under independence they would have no say at all on these things, it seems a tad hypocritical (granted they don't have the monopoly on that in politics).

From the angle of wages protection I think the SNP have a point. However...

If the UK going the same way as Scotland regarding Sunday trading causes the wages of all Sunday workers to fall, that suggests that profits in England are currently being exported to Scotland to enable people to be paid better in Scotland - so a hidden subsidy.

And so it ends up - same as ever - as Scotland wanting to preserve a better financial status at the expense of others in 'the union*'.

(* I hate that expression. It's being used to drive the grievances, via a pretence that we're not one country when we are)

The whole thing also exposes the fact that even if Scotland were independent it would still have to jump to the rUK's tune, just by the fact of the natural dominance of its bigger southern neighbour on a small island - and so blows away a lot of the claims by the SNP that it wouldn't still be on that string.

The only escape from that string would be via a race to the bottom - which the SNP have already made clear would be the route they'd take. Which is fine if that's what the Scottish people want, but the indy supporters think they're going to have high-minded principled stuff and not a desperate struggle to stay financially afloat.

Edited November 11, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

6 hours ago, gary1979666 said:

Nah, I'd be peeved if they we voting against a Labour bill too.  Thing is this has nothing to do with the contents of the bill.  Personally, I don't see why the Tesco round the corner can't be open the same hours on a Sunday as it is on a Sat.  Not sure why someone working a Sun should get paid more than one working a Sat.

To me it kinda goes against the point of devolution.  Scotland has it's parliament to decide certain matters, so to me, it makes sense that when the rest of the UK are discussing the same matters, then Scottish MPs (including the 3  non-SNP ones) step back.  

I seem to remember the SNP saying they would do something like that in the past, but those words now seem forgotten.  Given that under independence they would have no say at all on these things, it seems a tad hypocritical (granted they don't have the monopoly on that in politics).

 

 

As I mentioned yesterday, the SNP are in favour of Sunday trading as I understand it. They wanted the Tories to include some protection around workers pay / rights in the new legislation. The Tories refused are they were more concerned about the businesses and so the SNP " threatened " to vote against.

Given Independence, your right mate, we would have no say on these things in England but like the tax credits and the fox hunting, the SNP are representing their constituents where they see fit. Better together and all that 

I know what you mean about it seeming hypocritical but we need to be careful not to believe the right wing press ( and Neil ). Lets remember their actions prevented some Tory stuff going through. They didn`t need to actually vote on anything.

As I also said yesterday, the Tories had obviously done the maths on the Sunday trading and with Labour and some Tories planning to vote against it, they have ditched it and we are seeing the blame getting put on the SNP ?

Going by this thread, the blame game nearly worked.....if it hadn`t been for those pesky snippers 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I know what you mean about it seeming hypocritical but we need to be careful not to believe the right wing press ( and Neil ). Lets remember their actions prevented some Tory stuff going through. They didn`t need to actually vote on anything.

It's doing exactly what the tories want the SNP to be doing and what the SNP want the tories to be doing. Do you think the tories are feeling deflated by not being able to do the Sunday trading and foxhunting things, when they're getting away with so much more?

What it's doing is inflaming nationalist opinion, ensuring Labour stays dead in Scotland, and that people in England will switch to the tories to avoid the SNP with Labour (and you can be damned sure plenty will).

It's the same game both used in the lead-up to the election. What's funny tho is it's now vote tory get SNP.

And as the SNP as-good-as-admitted with their Sunday trading objection, what happens in England will always pull Scotland's strings, indy or not. And just as with Europe, you can influence that decision or be excluded from that decision.

[Comfy Bean]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's doing exactly what the tories want the SNP to be doing and what the SNP want the tories to be doing. Do you think the tories are feeling deflated by not being able to do the Sunday trading and foxhunting things, when they're getting away with so much more?

What it's doing is inflaming nationalist opinion, ensuring Labour stays dead in Scotland, and that people in England will switch to the tories to avoid the SNP with Labour (and you can be damned sure plenty will).

It's the same game both used in the lead-up to the election. What's funny tho is it's now vote tory get SNP.

And as the SNP as-good-as-admitted with their Sunday trading objection, what happens in England will always pull Scotland's strings, indy or not. And just as with Europe, you can influence that decision or be excluded from that decision.

Maybe your right Neil. Maybe they could follow Labours lead and just abstain. Or, they could stand up for the less well off ( and the foxes ) and try and act like an opposition.

They stood clearly on an anti-austerity, anti-nuke ticket and look to be doing a decent job of representing their constituents who voted for them in numbers none of us expected..

I agree with you that the Tories are " getting away with so much more ". To me it seems a bit daft to blame Scotland ( who sent down 1 ( one ) Tory MP ) or the SNP who oppose them at every turn but I realise by now that blame them you will. You also appear to have done a pretty decent job on here of defending some of the stuff the Tories have done. So you go on defending and the SNP will continue to force some of their plans to get ditched  

Of course, if Scotland had voted for Indy then the Tories wouldn`t be having some of these problems. It`s all a bit ironic