The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Yep, I agree.

And there was an interesting article on the Torygraph in the last few days about loads of MPs being a bit angry at the offers, because with hindsight they look to have been unnecessary.

Still, it's good that even the rabid-right like John Redwood have accepted that the offer has to be fulfilled - and I actually find myself agreeing with him that it should only be done as part of a wider new constitutional settlement across the whole union. ... tho the devil will be in the details.

PS: I read today about Salmond's 37 meetings with Murdoch. 37!!!!! There's no one in Westminster so far up Murdoch's arse!

the vote is over. he's announced he's quitting but still you continue to bang on about this. If it ever mattered (& no one else really seems to care) it certainly doesn't now. And although i tmay not always be Rupert, there is absolutely no doubt that there is much more evidence of dodgy links between NI & the Lab-or-a-Tory party

[Comfy Bean]

It's fascinating, but no one's died and no one's life is going to be ruined...

I agree that no one died but I`m honestly not so sure about that last bit. I hope your right though. There must be a reason that the people in Dundee and Glasgow voted YES and the people in Edinburgh and Dumfries voted to return to Westminster. We both know which areas will be affected most by the "austerity measures " coming down the line.

[Comfy Bean]

Trainspotting ?? That's what you wanted all along no wonder you voted Yes

I think.....might be wrong, that it was Neil that started it

Haven`t watched it for ages. You seen it mate ?

I was waiting until the voting was over but wanted to get back to you re your post the other day about how a YES vote may have been in your interests due to all the I.T work that would of been needed on both sides of the border.

Well, just wanted to let you know that we already have enough people up here who already know how to turn a computer off and back on again

Plus if you have been paying attention you will have noticed that me and LJS are self taught multiquoter experts on here now.

[LJS]

The problem is the YES camp are pushing for powers quick....

They would be best served following Millibands advice of going more slowly and going for full change. I get the feeling he is thinking about pushing PR.

Now would that be "quick" as in the "timetable" as trailed by George Osborne & set out clearly ( at least in terms of dates) By Gordon Brown & underscored by the Famous Vow. Talked up by every major figure in the Better Together campaign.

Right, & it is the YES camp that are at fault for suggesting they all stick to it. Now I know politicians are sleazebags but you'd think they could hold the line for a day or so.

It is outrageous that no one in the No camp was ever really questioned in depth about these powers - we were never actually told what they were - only when they would happen.

The whole thing was even rubbished by Michael (now lord) Forsyth - Scottish secretary under the thatch. He said it was like a bus timetable with times for the buses ... but no destinations.

Edited September 19, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

No doubt that is how some of the Yes vote will view it... If you listen more carefully and give him a chance, Milliband isn't blocking anything but proposing a bigger change than something which would just suit the Tory party.

he is breaking Nick Clegg's record for going back on a Pledge - oh its ok it was a vow not a pledge.

[LJS]

There has been some talk of what the future holds for Scotland & the UK. & some suggestions that the Yes campaign are being introspective.

Yes we are and I hope you will forgive us that for a few days - I have expended a little effort on this campaign in terms of talking to people answering their questions, mainly really explaining my reasons for voting yes. Most of these people approached me & asked me why I was voting yes or why they shouldn't vote no or asked me specific questions.

Without exception all the waverers I spoke to voted yes (trust me - I put no pressure on them & I have never had a conversation on the referendum with anyone where I didn't make it clear I would respect there decision if they voted no) & I heard similar stories from others so by 10pm last night I was quite optimistic - far from certain - but quite optimistic

I was really surprised how disappointed and upset I was when it became clear that no were going to win. I have experienced many political disappointments in my life, so one more shouldn't have been too difficult to deal with - maybe it was because my kids were involved - I don't know. but I was numb.

If an old cynic who has had a few chats with people about indy feels like that, I can't begin to imagine how some of the guys that have devoted countless hours to the campaign must feel.

So I hope you will allow us a period of reflection - and perhaps forgive a few people being a wee bit grumpy. My 15 year old son wants compulsory euthanasia at 65 because the old deprived us of independence ( HE IS JOKING - sad how i need to spell these things out)

despite all this, I am already seeing discussions starting of where we take this from here. Whatever has been said here, there is clearly an appetite for some sort of left of centre party in Scotland. Groups like the radical independence campaign and Women for Independence have been inspirational & I would love to see them them join up with the 30%+ of Labour party voters who abandoned their party in this campaign and come up with something different. There is a once in a generation opportunity here. The Tories remain as unpopular as ever, The LibDems are off the agenda for a few years and labour are ripe for the picking. I have no idea where the SNP will be. But if we can fashion something from the ashes of this campaign, who knows what we can achieve?

None of this will happen unless we can shake ourselves out of our stupour & do something. I have no idea if that will happen. we have been hurt badly by the onslaught from the UK establishment & big business.

If the UK parties are smart they will sort something out that at least superficially "fulfils" the vow. If they clearly renege on it, which does appear possible then all bets are off.

[* Can i point out this post is not about issues -please do me a favour & don't reply about currency or pension etc]

Edited September 20, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Now isn't the time to sit back, feel sorry for yourself and let Cameron slowly fuck you over...

We need a new plan... One that truly works for everyone...

PR, more devolved power for all the nations, reform of the House of Lords... Now is the time to push for it and it's going to need people to come together and not sit back moaning and being bitter...

on you go then, Barry. You get it going in England & we'll join in. Just let us know when you're ready

[kaosmark2]

30%+ of the Labour party who abandoned them in this campaign

I wouldn't say Labour abandoned such voters this campaign. You can legitimately have left of centre of views and not supported a Scottish drive for independence.

However, I do think introspection is fine. I do think looking at what happened is sensible, and I do hope that those who voted yes can come together with others who want some sort of change but didn't for a better future.

[LJS]

I have already have an exchange with my local labour hopeful... Bloody Tory in power here at the moment

The likes of SNP, Labour and Libs really need to start working together against the Tories...

Erm, we've got them down to one & you say we need to start working against them ... or do you mean him?

We really don't need lectures about working against the Tories. We are really good at that.

I wouldn't say Labour abandoned such voters this campaign. You can legitimately have left of centre of views and not supported a Scottish drive for independence.

However, I do think introspection is fine. I do think looking at what happened is sensible, and I do hope that those who voted yes can come together with others who want some sort of change but didn't for a better future.

sorry - I maybe phrased that ambiguously - I am talking about the 30% of labour voters who voted yes - so - it is the voters that abandoned Labour .& not labour that have abandoned the voters.. & that is of course on top of the labour voters who defected to the SNP in 2011

Just for the record, I would argue that labour abandoned the voters a long time ago!

P.s. I have edited original post to remove ambiguity.

Edited September 20, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

IMO this is one of the pettiest comments there's been in ages. It implies that anyone who believes No was the better result supports the current government.

Thanks, Kaos, that is ideed an astonishing award to receive - I am very humble.

the first part of my comment refers back to one afternoon a couple of months back when Neil & Russy ( I think it was them) just talked back & forwards with each other & they kind of sounded like 2 old buffers sitting in their London club. From memory someone else picked it up too, and no one complained.

The second part is easy - the tories won

[ThomThomDrum]

Apparently there have been some ugly scenes in Glasgow. Reading on social media that there has been 2 stabbings and a fair few scuffles

[ThomThomDrum]

Very surprised that there is nothing on the likes of Sky and BBC about what is going on in Glasgow. There must be a load of reporters there considering.............

[mrtourette]

Very surprised that there is nothing on the likes of Sky and BBC about what is going on in Glasgow. There must be a load of reporters there considering.............

There's stuff on the BBC website about it.

[ThomThomDrum]

There's stuff on the BBC website about it.

Fair enough, but there seems to be nothing at all on the TV. I should have clarified I was channel flicking as opposed to web browsing

[mrtourette]

Fair enough, but there seems to be nothing at all on the TV. I should have clarified I was channel flicking as opposed to web browsing

They don't need to paint the Yes campaign in a bad light now, the work is already done.

[ThomThomDrum]

A lot of folk fuming at the lack of reporting on it, as apparently its worse on the ground (or so it seems anyway to those "reporting" on social media) then made out on some media websites

[ThomThomDrum]

If this is how scumbag loyalists react to a No vote could you imagine what would of happened if Yes prevailed??

[CHRLY]

I thought it was no voters celebrating?

[kaosmark2]

Thanks, Kaos, that is ideed an astonishing award to receive - I am very humble.

the first part of my comment refers back to one afternoon a couple of months back when Neil & Russy ( I think it was them) just talked back & forwards with each other & they kind of sounded like 2 old buffers sitting in their London club. From memory someone else picked it up too, and no one complained.

The second part is easy - the tories won

I commented on that in agreement at the time. However the recent comment seemed to be speaking more universally.

And no, the tories didn't win, the No campaign won. They're not the same thing.

[kaosmark2]

Apparently there have been some ugly scenes in Glasgow. Reading on social media that there has been 2 stabbings and a fair few scuffles

Isn't that just a normal afternoon in Glasgow?

[LJS]

I thought it was no voters celebrating?

With Nazi salutes & "co-ordinated charge" on yes supporters. Oh & burning saltires. Police are saying no one was stabbed. These guys are hard line loyalists and I would never for a moment try and suggest they are in anyway representative of no voters.

Media coverage has been relatively light as no eggs were involved.

[atomised]

I believe there are orange order marches scheduled.for today in Glasgow too just to fan.the flames further

[LJS]

I commented on that in agreement at the time. However the recent comment seemed to be speaking more universally.

And no, the tories didn't win, the No campaign won. They're not the same thing.

Yup the no campaign won. The no campaign was mainly an unholy alliance between Labour in Scotland & the Tories in London. It's hard to see it as a great victory for Labour when 30% of their supporters voted yes. It is somewhat easier to see it as a win for the Tories.

[LJS]

I believe there are orange order marches scheduled.for today in Glasgow too just to fan.the flames further

Beautiful, just what we need.

I have said before that sectarianism is Scotland's racism. The Scottish government has done some good work to try & counter it. I hope they will continue.

There seems to be a bit of blurring of the lines happening between the loyalists & the SDL which is particularly concerning as up to now the SDL seems to have consisted of a few nutters backed up by a couple of busloads of EDL.

I am sure one thing we can all agree on here is that all of the above are odious scum.

[atomised]

Most definitely. Sectarianism is Glasgows nasty undercurrent. Not sure what the answer is to counteract that