The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...11__CK12_14_15_

I was left speechless watching BBC Breakfast this morning.

They had a guy on from Church of England Investments (or something similar), who said something like "RBS should be admired because the bonuses this year are only half of what they were last year".

Which is a bit like saying "admire the robber who only took half as much from you this time when he robbed you compared to the last time he robbed you".

FFS. If the Church of England think robbery is to be admired there's no hope whatsoever left for this country.

And just to follow, Dave Moron has said that "attacks on business are snobbery". Which of course has the subtext that attacks on benefit payments to those in need are not, they're always right and proper.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

[eFestivals]

No, no I'm meaning I can't see why Salmond/SNP would want it politically as you were implying.

it's much the same thing thing.

He doesn't want it because it's a huge financial liability, and to say he wanted a huge financial liability (that would about double Scotland's fixed national debt after independence, as well as lump it with around £500Bn of other potential liabilities) would be politically stupid, because the Scottish people would think it very stupid.

There's of course a reverse side to that.....

If RBS was a successful Scottish company and bringing glory on Scotland it would be a political necessity to demand it for Scotland.

Which means that Scotland only wants the things which are beneficial to it, and England can have the shit.

[Kyelo]

it's much the same thing thing.

He doesn't want it because it's a huge financial liability, and to say he wanted a huge financial liability (that would about double Scotland's fixed national debt after independence, as well as lump it with around £500Bn of other potential liabilities) would be politically stupid, because the Scottish people would think it very stupid.

There's of course a reverse side to that.....

If RBS was a successful Scottish company and bringing glory on Scotland it would be a political necessity to demand it for Scotland.

Which means that Scotland only wants the things which are beneficial to it, and England can have the shit.

Yeah all true.

Personally I'm starting to like the idea of devolution max as that is the closest thing to a federal system I'd like to see spread out to all 4 nations of the union.

[lost]

come in agent Brown, mission accomplished

[Kyelo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17183062

Totally agree with this guy. I'd like a federal UK where everything is devolved to the 4 nations apart from security and foreign affairs.

[kaosmark2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-17183062

Totally agree with this guy. I'd like a federal UK where everything is devolved to the 4 nations apart from security and foreign affairs.

Why?

[Kyelo]

Why?

Well 1. I've never bought the idea or being British or Britain(anybody been watching that make 'Bradford British' thing btw?) 2. the issues affecting each nation can be worlds apart and looked at from different angles(see service areas in Scotland being huge or Torie dominated south) 3. it would stop the squabbling(Scotland's oil subsidizes England, English taxes subsidize Scotland etc), the governments would be more accountable.

However I do think there is enough in common with each other that open trade between us, travel, a shared military and foreign affairs would be a benefit.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Kyelo

[kaosmark2]

Well 1. I've never bought the idea or being British or Britain(anybody been watching that make 'Bradford British' thing btw?) 2. the issues affecting each nation can be worlds apart and looked at from different angles(see service areas in Scotland being huge or Torie dominated south) 3. it would stop the squabbling(Scotland's oil subsidizes England, English taxes subsidize Scotland etc), the governments would be more accountable.

However I do think there is enough in common with each other that open trade between us, travel, a shared military and foreign affairs would be a benefit. Those shared are beneficial I think.

Personally, I think different areas in England are as different as England as a whole to Scotland as a whole. I'm actually in favour of some greater devolution to different regions, I don't see the different countries being that significant. I reckon there's far more difference between Yorkshire, Oxfordshire and Cornwall than there is between Cumbria and Ayrshire, or Avon and South Wales. Cultures and issues vary as much within England as they do between England, Scotland and Wales. I don't see any reason the 'national borders' should be the dividing line if we're to have greater devolution to different regions.

[Kyelo]

Personally, I think different areas in England are as different as England as a whole to Scotland as a whole. I'm actually in favour of some greater devolution to different regions, I don't see the different countries being that significant. I reckon there's far more difference between Yorkshire, Oxfordshire and Cornwall than there is between Cumbria and Ayrshire, or Avon and South Wales. Cultures and issues vary as much within England as they do between England, Scotland and Wales. I don't see any reason the 'national borders' should be the dividing line if we're to have greater devolution to different regions.

That too could be accommodated under a federal set up, bit like American states, counties etc

[kaosmark2]

That too could be accommodated under a federal set up, bit like American states, counties etc

I think it'd have to be larger regions than just counties, but not as large as countries. I just think that it'd be a cheap cop-out as to way to divide areas up if we were to go for a federal arrangement.

[lost]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-17183062

Totally agree with this guy. I'd like a federal UK where everything is devolved to the 4 nations apart from security and foreign affairs.

Economic policy too I guess? hits the same problem as Scotland, if we all keep the same currency you don't get interest rate setting ability.

[Kowalski]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9149481/TV-viewers-in-separate-Scotland-to-pay-extra-for-BBC.html

"Television viewers in an independent Scotland would be forced to pay an extra subscription fee to access the full range of BBC programmes, under the SNP’s plans to break up the corporation.

Pete Wishart, the party’s broadcasting spokesman, said the replacement Scottish Broadcasting Corporation (SBC) would spend up to £75 million a year importing popular UK programmes like EastEnders, which viewers could watch for free.

But he said that households would have to pay a “commercial” charge on top of the licence fee, by installing satellite or cable TV, if they wanted to watch other BBC shows that “have got very little to do with the experience of living in Scotland”.

The limited budget for buying in BBC content suggests a relatively small proportion of its programmes would be purchased for free-to-air viewing. Mr Wishart said the SBC would instead spend an extra £100 million on Scottish programming.

The Perth and North Perthshire MP also used the speech, at a media conference in Salford, Greater Manchester, to suggest the BBC is an “institutional enemy” of the party’s drive for separation.

However, a senior BBC Scotland executive said internal research shows Scottish viewers get more from the corporation than they pay in licence fees, while opposition parties warned viewers would miss out on their best-loved shows.

Alex Salmond has insisted people in a separate Scotland could continue watching their supposed “favourite” programmes like EastEnders and the X Factor, but have not made clear what would happen to less mainstream shows.

Mr Wishart began his speech by stating the SNP would not publish its final plans next year but started divulging details under close questioning from delegates.

Asked which BBC programmes would continue to be broadcast after independence, he said: “We would just buy the programmes that we’d want.

“Do we want some of the programmes that we see in Scotland which have got very little to do with the experience of living in Scotland, got very little to do with our national debate? We’d want popular programmes.”

He estimated between £50 million and £75 million would be spent annually buying in BBC shows for “what would become SBC ONE and SBC TWO”.

These would be free to view for households paying the Scottish licence fee, but the BBC currently spends around £2.5 billion a year on output including specialist shows on channels such as BBC TWO and BBC FOUR.

Asked how viewers would access less mainstream content, he said: “If you have a cable or satellite network, you would get the full range of services.”

The MP confirmed this would require households to pay an addition “commercial” charge on top of their SBC licence fee."

[kaosmark2]

I find it crazy that TV debates would actually come into it....

[Donkey]

TV is a lot of crap anyway. The higher the licence the better.

[Kyelo]

http://www.telegraph...ra-for-BBC.html

I know several people who haven't paid the current license for years so fail to see how anybody would be fored to do anything lol

[LondonTom]

They want more programming relevant to Scotland..but would willing to pay to import Eastenders?

[eFestivals]

I'm amused to see that Shetland and Orkney are suggesting they do to Scotland what the SNP wants to do to the UK - and which would royally screw everything the SNP is planning.

I'm looking forwards to seeing what Salmond thinks of the idea. I'm guessing that nationalism is only OK in his eyes if it's the version of nationalism he subscribes to.

Edited March 18, 2013 by eFestivals

[RobertProsineckisLighter]

Personally, I think different areas in England are as different as England as a whole to Scotland as a whole. I'm actually in favour of some greater devolution to different regions, I don't see the different countries being that significant. I reckon there's far more difference between Yorkshire, Oxfordshire and Cornwall than there is between Cumbria and Ayrshire, or Avon and South Wales. Cultures and issues vary as much within England as they do between England, Scotland and Wales. I don't see any reason the 'national borders' should be the dividing line if we're to have greater devolution to different regions.

The whole UK needs to stop being so London and South East centric. I'm just not sure if we are too far gone to sort this out.

[kaosmark2]

The whole UK needs to stop being so London and South East centric. I'm just not sure if we are too far gone to sort this out.

I don't reckon we're too far gone, just the issue is those in power have no interest in sorting out the rest of the UK or any familiarity with the huge regional differences.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

While I completely agree with more devolved power, the only time the Government offered devolved power to a UK Region, it got well and truely shat on.

Ideally though, I'd follow Switzerland for most political things.

Edited March 18, 2013 by thesecretingredientiscrime

[Paul ™]

18/09/14

[eFestivals]

I've just discovered that Michael Gove is Scottish.

So if you lot vote 'yes' in a year's time, I'm going to start a campaign to send him back to you (along with your queen Liz, of course) to spare the rump-UK that horror.

After all, if you want your own destiny, you shouldn't just cherry pick the bits that suit you, should have all of it.

[viberunner]

I've just discovered that Michael Gove is Scottish.

So if you lot vote 'yes' in a year's time, I'm going to start a campaign to send him back to you (along with your queen Liz, of course) to spare the rump-UK that horror.

After all, if you want your own destiny, you shouldn't just cherry pick the bits that suit you, should have all of it.

That's cool. The difference between the English and the Scottish is the Scottish wouldn't elect Gove to power. Because we're not right-wing fucking numpties like you guys Sarf of the Wall are.

The only downside to Scottish Independence would be a permanent Tory hegemony in Westminster.

However, given I'm living in Scotland... I can live with that!!

[russycarps]

did you see the reports that scottish independence is backed by more english people than scottish people

considering the Barnett formula. I'm not surprised. Though I doubt most english or scots have even heard of the barnett formula

[viberunner]

did you see the reports that scottish independence is backed by more english people than scottish people

Actually I'm English - in as much as I was born there, otherwise it's an irrational concept - so no it doesn't.