'free' schools

[eFestivals]

One positive i heard is teachers will now have to have at least a 2:2 qualification. Although this won't help numbers it could help qaulity.

for free schools, or all schools?

It can't be for free schools - they don't even need to have qualified teachers in sole control of a class.

[eFestivals]

No I have given up trying to show someone they are WAY gone into believing their own bullshit too much

You should try challenging your own bullshit every now and then instead of just going along with your own chip on your shoulder

bullshit?? What bullshit? There is only yours.

There is a distinct difference between free schools and academies. They are not the same. You claim that they are makes you wrong.

You might say "who runs them makes no difference", but if that's the case, why has there been felt the need to exclude amateurs from running them up til now?

And don't you think that schools run by amateurs - however well intentioned - are hugely unlikely to reach the same levels of professionalism in schooling children as schools run by professionals?

[eFestivals]

For any school... The qualification entry will be 2:2 for PGCE... All schools can employee unqualified teachers...

Wrong. State schools cannot employ unqualified teachers as teachers in normal circumstances.

Free schools can employ unqualified teachers as teachers in normal circumstances (and presumably academies too now - tho that's new from 2010, I think, if that's now the case)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-13183289

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8471130/School-standards-undermined-by-unqualified-teachers.html

(NOTE: there is a difference between what might happen thru circumstances and what the law and statutory guidance say).

[eFestivals]

I have shown you the evidence to inform your failings but you won't consume it so I will move on. You are simply wrong. Free schools are Academies. Fact.

You could claim accuracy in light of the new law by saying "academies are free schools", but not the other way around. What academies can be or are since this 2010 law is different to what they were prior to that 2010 law.

Given that that law has only come into practical effect today, even then you'd only shade it by a few hours.

My gut agrees with this... Going to be interesting to see how it works out.

Who needs gut? There's solid evidence, evidence that the govt won't accept because their ideology won't allow them to.

Edited September 5, 2011 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

there are good teachers already, just not enough of them

yep. That, more than any other single factor, is where our education system is going wrong. And what causes that problem is the number of teachers who leave teaching.

It's for a number of reasons, but reasons that include shit pay. If we think our kids are only good enough to deserve under-average people as teachers, then that's what they'll get and they'll turn out under-average kids too. It's not rocket science.

The tories love market principle - unless it affects the amount they might pay in tax of course. And so one of society's most important jobs is left in the hands of the dedicated to work til exhaustion over, or those thought so poor by society's market principles that teaching at poor pay is the best they'll get to be.

Until our teachers are respected by all levels and all takes on society - which includes paying them at the level that respect deserves too, things will stay much the same.

[Katster]

I have no idea what any of you are talking about and I work in education. Then again I'm not sure any of you have any idea what you are talking about either!!

[eFestivals]

I have no idea what any of you are talking about and I work in education. Then again I'm not sure any of you have any idea what you are talking about either!!

So that's the workers, the public, and the govt, all stupid together.

Hey, at least there's consensus for once.

[abdoujaparov]

The reason there is a national curriculum is so that we know that children are being taught what they need to learn, using research-approved methods.

[eFestivals]

Better pay would drive up the quality and number of teachers. Lib Dems came up with the idea of putting a 1p on income tax many moons ago to provide extra funding to Education. I am all for it.

If you want good, gifted people to enter the education sector then you have to up the pay to be frank. What is it for a teacher starting off £21k ? and if you get more experience and take on extra responsibility like head of department it rises to £30k ? You simply are not going to generate large numbers of great teachers with that sort of remuneration to be frank. Industry will take the best graduates for itself. and I doubt many good people in industry are to quit their jobs, spend a year doing the PGCE, paying out tution fees as they go, to enter an industry at £21k when they where probably paid vastly more in industry.

yep - you've nailed it.

There's f**k all point fiddling around the edges with stuff like free schools in the hope of educational improvement. Unless the pay of teachers is increased significantly then whatever form of school there is it'll still only attract the worst people to be teachers on the basis of the money alone.

There's of course lots of dedicated teachers too, who work in education as a vocation. But with them having to cover for the shit ones they get worn out, and either mostly become disillusioned and stay (and so turn to shit themselves), or end up leaving teaching altogether. Higher pay (and the respect for their work that that implies) would help these people stay in teaching, as well as attract better others who'd help take the load off them.

The market principles so loved by tories should be saying to those tories that they're recruiting shit people to teach their children - but those people's objection to taxes over-rides that aspect, and so they remain clinging to the false hope that vocationalism can paper over the gaps when it doesn't.

[fred quimby]

There's of course lots of dedicated teachers too, who work in education as a vocation. But with them having to cover for the shit ones they get worn out, and either mostly become disillusioned and stay (and so turn to shit themselves), or end up leaving teaching altogether. Higher pay (and the respect for their work that that implies) would help these people stay in teaching, as well as attract better others who'd help take the load off them.

Edited September 6, 2011 by fred quimby

[fred quimby]

some are shit

too many

[Rufus Gwertigan]

There has been a lot of talk in setting up some faith schools in our area, especially Muslim ones. But some make valid points against and the points could extend to all free schools

If you've got free schools, then a particular characteristic, be it white middle-class, Shia Muslim, born-again Christian, then you're setting up silos of mutually exclusive populations, who won't be able to connect with each other, who won't be able to converge in the way that I think we need to.

"It is ultimately divisive and does nothing to add to understanding and tolerance, which is the real route to ridding society of extremism."

[grumpyhack]

I've just finished preparing my lesson plans, handouts and worksheets etc for the first two sessions of a new teaching course I'll be starting next week for would be adult and community ed tutors so I thought I'd chip in a few thoughts.

Yes there are good and bad, committed and couldn't-care-less teachers, just as there are good and bad accountants, dustmen, police officers, internet discussion board moderators or any other occupation you'd care to pick.

I kick off the first session by saying that for me teaching is 3Ps - Preparation, Passion and Practice. My course can help with the preparation and give plenty of practice but the one thing I can't give people is passion - they've either got it or they haven't. And I tell the learners if they haven't got the passion they shouldn't bother to come back for week two.

Obviously along with the 3Ps teachers need subject knowledge that needs to constantly be refreshed and updated - for example if you teach IT and a new version of key software comes along then you need to update yourself. There are usually good in-service training opportunities.

I don't share the dissmissive comments made by some about outsiders coming in. Sometimes learners welcome the opportunity to meet and question people with 'real world' experience - for example if someone is considering a career in nursing it may be helpful to talk to someone who has direct experience of the subject.

But we do need to be aware that pretty well everyone has an agenda so need to be careful about balance. For example if you have a session on Global Warming it's no bad thing along with someone from an energy producer but also have someone from Friends of the Earth to get a decent debate and a range of perspectives.

One of the things I get people to discuss on the course are good and bad learning experiences. One that many will have in common is learning to drive and I ask if any had more than one instructor. Quite a few usually have and I ask if one was better than another. Again usually the answer if yes, so I point out you were the same learner, learning the same subject but your experiences were very different - and that leads into some of the qualities needed in a good teacher, tutor or instructor.

[eFestivals]

what a wonderful sweeping statement to put down our teachers. I never realiased that nearly all our teachers in Britain are Sh*t till I read this. Thanks for enlightening me, I'll make sure my kids teachers know what they are

I'm not saying that all teachers are shit. It's not a statement designed to be putting them down. It's a statement based in the real experiences of very many teachers - and probably very many more ex-teachers.

It's defo the case that lots of the better ones - the ones that the education system needs to be keeping - get worn down by the overall situation they find themselves in, and either leave teaching as a result or end up being less good as a result of their disillusion.

The teaching profession itself has been saying this for around two decades (if not longer). What's so outrageously wrong with repeating it?

[fred quimby]

The teaching profession itself has been saying this for around two decades (if not longer). What's so outrageously wrong with repeating it?

[fred quimby]

my experience at school, my kids experiences, for some reason, I seem to know a few teachers, and they tell me too

shit teacher; one who doesn't do their job properly..? ones who run around chasing their tales not doing what they're supposed to be doing... like helping the students, having papers marked with follow up to show where they could improve... that kind of thing

if it's your kid who's suffered from a shit teacher, then one is too many (but there are more)

[eFestivals]

Nothing wrong, even outrageously. You did appear to be saying that it was the majority.

Do you have the source of where the Teaching Profession have been saying that the majority of it's teachers are rubbish, as you quote?

I didn't 'quote' anything, so can't give you a quote.

While the teaching profession hasn't put it quite like that, it's the case that the majority of the better teachers get worn down by the whole scenario around teaching, and so either become not-so-good teachers as a result of being worn down, or leave teaching altogether.

The teaching profession certainly acknowledges just how many leave teaching, and they also acknowledge that the teachers that remain are less good than they'd otherwise be as a result of how many leave - after all, it tends to be the better teachers that leave because they're the better skilled people; the less good ones tend to remain as they have fewer alternative options.

If more of the better teachers remained in teaching (via, say, better pay), it would lead to an improvement that is greater than the greater skills those teachers have - because fewer would become worn down and disillusioned.

[Gre]

Just to stick an oar in, from conversations with teachers & ex- teachers that I know, the parts about the job that get them down are dealing with poor management, endless paperwork, targets, not feeling protected by their superiors etc.

These are things that no-one should have to deal with. Its not as simple as just throwing a few grand their way and hoping they'll stick with it.

[eFestivals]

Just to stick an oar in, from conversations with teachers & ex- teachers that I know, the parts about the job that get them down are dealing with poor management, endless paperwork, targets, not feeling protected by their superiors etc.

These are things that no-one should have to deal with. Its not as simple as just throwing a few grand their way and hoping they'll stick with it.

Yep - but the 'good' teacher's workload with such things is increased because they're having do that stuff for the 'poor' teachers.

That was certainly the case with my sister-in-law, who got fed up with having to deal with other people's shite and so left teaching as a result. Extra money alone probably wouldn't have got her to stay - but she was lucky enough to have the option of a £250k+ job via her daddy, which is what she took.

Not everyone has such well-paid and easy alternative options open to them, and extra money certainly does compensate people for extra workload (else all of capitalist theory is wrong) - and so if extra money was paid to all of the teaching profession, more of the better teachers would stay, meaning that there were fewer 'poor' teachers they were covering for, so the workload of those better teachers becomes less.

The amount teachers are paid is the key to that improvement, but the extra money is not all that happens to make that improvement.

Edited September 8, 2011 by eFestivals

[abdoujaparov]

In law (under the 1944 Education Act) parents are responsible for ensuring that their children receive a satisfactory education. Sadly, most parents appear to do no more than dump their kids into a state education system which is more concerned with process and conformity than anything else, and otherwise wash their hands of their responsibility

[fred quimby]

I didn't 'quote' anything, so can't give you a quote.

While the teaching profession hasn't put it quite like that, it's the case that the majority of the better teachers get worn down by the whole scenario around teaching, and so either become not-so-good teachers as a result of being worn down, or leave teaching altogether.

The teaching profession certainly acknowledges just how many leave teaching, and they also acknowledge that the teachers that remain are less good than they'd otherwise be as a result of how many leave - after all, it tends to be the better teachers that leave because they're the better skilled people; the less good ones tend to remain as they have fewer alternative options.

If more of the better teachers remained in teaching (via, say, better pay), it would lead to an improvement that is greater than the greater skills those teachers have - because fewer would become worn down and disillusioned.

Edited September 8, 2011 by fred quimby

[abdoujaparov]

in what sense....?

[eFestivals]

your Father in Law got any of those jobs for me

not my father-in-law, my brother's. He's long retired from being a partner at the company that was Coopers Lybrand (PriceCoopersWaterhouse now, isn't it?) so I doubt it, and he might even be dead for all I know ... but it was handy when my bruv got married, they didn't need to hire a roller, they just used her dad's.

How some people live eh?

[abdoujaparov]

I get what you're saying... but how should it be my responsibility to teach my kids about something I know nothing about?

[abdoujaparov]

He isn't saying it is your responsibility to teach the little one quadratic equation... But it is very much your responsibility that you child turns up at school, is in the right frame of mind for school (apparently children not going bed on time is a major issue for teachers trying to teach tired children), try their best, obeys the teachers directions etc etc... It is also important you take the time to offer whatever help your child needs with their homework / further learning.