General News Discussion

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I think you need a maths lesson matey.

[windy_miller]

I know a couple who are married with a 12 year gap... Quite happily as well,,,,

They met when she was 23 and he was 40.... Do you think that is creepy ? or only when its younger?

[Rufus Gwertigan]

-----

I don't think any moral training comes into it really. Aren't all blokes lead by the dicks to a certain extent? I doubt there's any one of us who hasn't done something (tho perhaps only very minor) that we wished we'd rather not done because of an attraction we have for another.

[windy_miller]

She was about 23 and he was about 38 I think....so it was about 17 years

[Spindles]

I think its reasonable to expect some restraint from the teacher in this case...

[eFestivals]

Deary me... I have no defence.... Going back quite a long time now sorry

She was about 23 and he was about 38 I think....so it was about 17 years...

you still need that maths lesson. .... as rufus has said, theres one with some time on his hands very soon.

[eFestivals]

In a case where an adult is behaving in a romantic or sexual manner towards a minor I find it repulsive. I have an 18 year old daughter (who has been in a stable relationship with her boyfriend of the same age since they were 14 or 15) and the idea that she might have had teachers hitting on her when she was young, naive and may have been seeking the approval of authority figures causes me disgust.

if the teacher is hitting on the kid then it's obviously wrong ... but I'm not so naive as to think it only ever works in that direction and not the other direction.

That doesn't make it right of course, but it still makes it something entirely different.

Teachers, like any public servant in a role of authority have a responsibility to behave in a certain manner. Where they fail to do so and their actions cause harm or suffering to those to whom they have a duty of care I believe that they should be punished by the law.

as a general idea I agree with that wholeheartedly.

But of course whether a "child" (put in quotes because a person's age does not necessarily denote their mental and emotional maturity) is caused harm or suffering by such 'wrong' actions by a teacher is another thing entirely. That harm is not there by default.

All I know about this particular case is what has been said on the news, so I'm not going to speculate about what he may or may not have done, but if it is the case that he has broken that trust placed in him I am confident that he will be punished by the law.

he's certainly broken the law, and you can be 200% sure that they'll throw the book at him.

But nothing of that allows for there being two sides to the story - which there of course is - or that the side of the story that the law will use against him in court is actually a true or accurate account of what happened.

[Ed209]

For someone who claims to be a great software engineer, Barry's ability to subtract two numbers is fucking hilarious

[Spindles]

Yeah, I get what you are saying, however my view would be it is the responsibility of an adult to be able to recognise and discourage any such behaviour.

It all comes down to the personal responsibility of an adult. Either you accept responsibility for your actions and therefore punishment where they are outside of the bounds set by morality and law or you are one of those people for whom there is always someone else to blame when you act like a human reptile.

I also don't believe that girls who dress up nice are partly responsible for being rape victims, or that people who are bullied are partly responsible because they 'love playing the victim'.

Not aimed at anyone or any subject in particular, I just feel that the majority of problems in society arise from either people being unreasonable or people not taking responsibility for their own actions.

[Spartacus Mars]

His maths skills are going to come in handy.

12 savage beatings + 8 forceful penises + 2 sharpened toothbrush stabbings = 1 week

[Spindles]

"cocks like coke cans" ©2011 Kevin Smith.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

if the teacher is hitting on the kid then it's obviously wrong ... but I'm not so naive as to think it only ever works in that direction and not the other direction.

That doesn't make it right of course, but it still makes it something entirely different.

as a general idea I agree with that wholeheartedly.

But of course whether a "child" (put in quotes because a person's age does not necessarily denote their mental and emotional maturity) is caused harm or suffering by such 'wrong' actions by a teacher is another thing entirely. That harm is not there by default.

he's certainly broken the law, and you can be 200% sure that they'll throw the book at him.

But nothing of that allows for there being two sides to the story - which there of course is - or that the side of the story that the law will use against him in court is actually a true or accurate account of what happened.

[Spindles]

No likes left to give, but that is a very good explanation mr Rufus.

[eFestivals]

The reason why the law is as it is at the moment is to remove any ambiguity. I remember a care a few years back, however the teacher waited until she was 16 before getting nuts deep, and he was sacked anyway even though they were living together. The reason why the law does not look at both sides of the story equally is that one is from a position of authority or care. Often that person can have a greater influence on even the most mature person.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

I'm not trying to suggest that the laws around the duties of teachers are wrong - in themselves at least.

But when a comparison is made against what is only a small change in circumstances - of the girl being a year older (or perhaps, just a day older), and the bloke not being a teacher - then there's a massive difference in the consequences, and it's the disparity between those things which makes me uncomfortable.

And when it comes down to it, the vast majority of 15 or 16 year old girls will defer to someone of a much greater age - which puts that person of greater age in no less of a position of influence than any teacher. After all, the influence doesn't really come from being a teacher - kids all over are able to (in their heads, at least) tell their teacher to fuck off.

The actual "authority" part means very little, aside from with a (paedophile-type) abuser. It's "influence" and not "authority" which is at play in a case like this, yet that influence exists for far more than with just teachers.

[eFestivals]

Yeah, I get what you are saying, however my view would be it is the responsibility of an adult to be able to recognise and discourage any such behaviour.

It all comes down to the personal responsibility of an adult. Either you accept responsibility for your actions and therefore punishment where they are outside of the bounds set by morality and law or you are one of those people for whom there is always someone else to blame when you act like a human reptile.

I also don't believe that girls who dress up nice are partly responsible for being rape victims, or that people who are bullied are partly responsible because they 'love playing the victim'.

Not aimed at anyone or any subject in particular, I just feel that the majority of problems in society arise from either people being unreasonable or people not taking responsibility for their own actions.

I'm certainly NOT trying to shift the teacher's wrongdoing from himself. And in general I agree with everything you've said here.

But adults fail in their responsibilities in all directions all the time, and until we have perfection in every other branch of life we're going to continue to see non-perfection in teachers.

It's normally the case with stories such as this one that, while the teacher gets all of the consequences (and I'm not saying they shouldn't) it's not the one-sided scenario that the prosecution makes out. And while the teacher should take responsibility for their doings, the same applies on the other side (no matter that she's only 15) too - because there's not a responsibility switch that gets flipped and switched on on the day a person turns 16.

I'm not trying to defend the teacher. I'm saying that there's a massive disparity with the consequences just because he is a teacher.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I'm certainly NOT trying to shift the teacher's wrongdoing from himself. And in general I agree with everything you've said here.

But adults fail in their responsibilities in all directions all the time, and until we have perfection in every other branch of life we're going to continue to see non-perfection in teachers.

It's normally the case with stories such as this one that, while the teacher gets all of the consequences (and I'm not saying they shouldn't) it's not the one-sided scenario that the prosecution makes out. And while the teacher should take responsibility for their doings, the same applies on the other side (no matter that she's only 15) too - because there's not a responsibility switch that gets flipped and switched on on the day a person turns 16.

I'm not trying to defend the teacher. I'm saying that there's a massive disparity with the consequences just because he is a teacher.

[eFestivals]

You have a point from a legal standpoint but I wonder what the situation is from a social point. Lets say a 30 year old leaves his wife for a 16 year old I am certain he would have some serious shit to deal with. To escape the consequences of the law does not mean you escape consequences.

it's just the difference in the legals I was meaning, rather than the social side.

And of course on the social side there could be almost no consequences outside of perhaps a few odd looks from others - it all depends on the social situation of the people involved.

Maybe it is from my experiences but I have deep seated concerns about older men having relationships with barely legal teens. It has nothing to do with social convention and more to do with the predatory behaviour I have seen in some men. But in saying that I have seen the same behaviour in some men but they aim at vunerable women.

I doubt my view of "older men having relationships with barely legal teens" is much different to your own.

My comments were driven only by me having realised that the legal consequences for this teacher are massive - the loss of his career, and quite possibly a sex-offence conviction that pretty much has him labelled for life as a paedo. And then, against that, that the legal consequences for someone else doing almost the same thing are zero.

I completely get why the law is what it is for teachers, and when considered in isolation I completely agree with it being that way.

But when put against someone else doing almost the same thing, the disparity in consequences is as big as it gets - and from that I almost feel sorry for that teacher. His life is going to be shit.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

It may sound brutal but I have no sympathy for him. All along the way he has probably had ways to get out of the situation but has chosen not to take them, even though he knew the possible consequences. He has played the game and lost unfortunately for him. I think he should just man up a bit.

[lost]

half your age and add 7, don't go younger

[eFestivals]

It may sound brutal but I have no sympathy for him. All along the way he has probably had ways to get out of the situation but has chosen not to take them, even though he knew the possible consequences. He has played the game and lost unfortunately for him.

yeah, but that - just those words (not the fact of him being a teacher, or the girl's age) - applies no less to someone having an affair who gets caught out.

Many people would be harsh in that way on that teacher, but I don't think that most people would take the same harsh line with someone having an affair - and yet with both, at the end of the day (as far as we currently know, anyway) they're not much different. It's two people who want to be together.

The fact that they might, after his title and position is stripped away, just be two people who want to be together counts for nothing. And that part defo makes me sad.

I think he should just man up a bit.

lol - it depends which way you look at things.

I'd say it must take an awful lot of bottle to do what he's done. The easy option would have been to stay home and stick to the law.

So i'd say that manning up isn't what he needs.

[AcademicPistol]

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

yeah, but that - just those words (not the fact of him being a teacher, or the girl's age) - applies no less to someone having an affair who gets caught out.

Many people would be harsh in that way on that teacher, but I don't think that most people would take the same harsh line with someone having an affair - and yet with both, at the end of the day (as far as we currently know, anyway) they're not much different. It's two people who want to be together.

The fact that they might, after his title and position is stripped away, just be two people who want to be together counts for nothing. And that part defo makes me sad.

lol - it depends which way you look at things.

I'd say it must take an awful lot of bottle to do what he's done. The easy option would have been to stay home and stick to the law.

So i'd say that manning up isn't what he needs.

[fred quimby]

-----

I doubt there's any one of us who hasn't done something (tho perhaps only very minor) that we wished we'd rather not done because of an attraction we have for another.

Edited September 25, 2012 by fred quimby

[Ed209]

half your age and add 7, don't go younger

[eFestivals]

I was really looking at it from the angle of having an affair but with harsher consequences. As to manning up I think if they are in love he should be willing to stand up for that. While he may have faced some consequences earlier (we dont know if he would have had been prosecuted), standing up and been honest about the relationship would give it some legitimacy. I guess we can only really comment from what we would do in that situation. I would not get myself in that situation in the first place.

yep, but the more difficult a situation is, the more likely we are as humans to face up to all of that situation. So while I agree with what you say about being honest as the best way forwards for them as a couple, I'd guess it's rare for people in situations like this to take that route.

It's be interesting to see some stats around these sorts of things - to see if any teachers do take that 'honest' route.

It would also be interesting if there were stats available to see if having changed the laws* around these things has much changed how much it happens - I guess it has, but I also guess that there's no stats to back that up.

(* things were very different when I was at school; at a mate's Catholic school one of the teachers got a 15 year old pregnant - they got married, he kept his job, she continued thru school to do A levels)

I would not get myself in that situation in the first place.

I'd say that's the sort of thing we'd all like to believe of ourselves, but which we couldn't possibly know unless/until it happened - much like the idea of jumping in front of a bus to save our own child.