General News Discussion

[Rufus Gwertigan]

All this kerfuffle over Kate and her norks, if all someone has to do is climb a barb wire fence, swim a crocodile infested river, navigate a minefield, fight off killer squirrels and then have to sit in a bush for hours while holding your breath so you are not detected by the swarms of highly trained police you are hardly trying to protect your privacy privacy.

[eFestivals]

All this kerfuffle over Kate and her norks, if all someone has to do is climb a barb wire fence, swim a crocodile infested river, navigate a minefield, fight off killer squirrels and then have to sit in a bush for hours while holding your breath so you are not detected by the swarms of highly trained police you are hardly trying to protect your privacy privacy.

sod the pics being banned.

Does Kate have tits? The country needs to be told!

[Rufus Gwertigan]

sod the pics being banned.

Does Kate have tits? The country needs to be told!

[Spartacus Mars]

The murderer of Ian Tomlinson has been sacked.

He should be spending a few years in jail, but knowing how these guys love and I mean absolutely LOVE their job it's the second-best outcome we could have hoped for after his Rodney O'J Jackson King non-trial.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

The murderer of Ian Tomlinson has been sacked.

He should be spending a few years in jail, but knowing how these guys love and I mean absolutely LOVE their job it's the second-best outcome we could have hoped for after his Rodney O'J Jackson King non-trial.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Two coppers are shot dead and yet again the media are sparking a "debate" on should all the police be armed. The press never seem to ask the right questions like if they were armed would they be alive. Probably not, so what is there to debate?

[Spindles]

Indeed. There is an escalating arms race among the kind of people who enjoy violence. I don't think that automatically means arm the police. This maniac has repeatedly used grenades, so should we give the coppers RPG's so they are better armed?

I have always preferred to see unarmed police. Ian Tomlinson case proves that, unfortunately the police force doesn't just attract people who want to protect, or people who are socially responsible, it also attracts bullies, control freaks, power junkies and some right cnuts. I don't want to give them more power, more strength, more intimidation.

I was shocked and stunned by this today. Got a bit upset if I am honest, it reminds me that I am sat behind 2 locked doors and a set of curtains like the old men in harry brown, it's a scary world outside now.

[lost]

the debate is currently going on in Norway after the shootings there. Think there is only us, Ireland, Norway and New Zeland left who don't arm police.

[Spindles]

Well, there are many complex arguments for and against, so I won't try and make the case in a forum post. But my own belief is that we shouldn't.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

People will be thinking more along the way of carrying a fireman for police self protection. Carrying a gun for protection is an illusion. For it to be effective you need to have it at the ready and prepared for use. Very little can defend against the element of surprise, just look how many soldiers get shot in an ambush and they are gunned up to the arse. What you will end up with though is coppers that become far more concerned about protecting their firearm. Can you see coppers at a festival or street event giving you a hug if there is a chance of you grabbing their weapon? As in firearm btw not their love weapon.

[Spindles]

All of that. Not a fan of personal firearms outside of shooting ranges, where they can be used for sport and competition by people with an interest.

A friend of mine joined the police a few years ago, he let me put on his belt and stab vest but ssh don't tell. I swear that stuff weighs a tonne!

He mentioned that the longer he was in the more the job was hardening him. I don't hear from him any more sadly, but from the way he was talking the last time I saw him I don't think he was particularly happy. He was opposed to having to carry a firearm. He felt it would make him a target and with incidents like today I can see why he said that.

[Ed209]

I think the majority of police don't want to carry, and the majority of the public don't want them to carry, so I cant see it happening anytime soon.

[Spindles]

Quite a disturbing aspect is that there was a £50k reward for his capture. He was apparently "swanning around the estate" and drinking in local pubs. If so, why was no one who saw this willing to cash in that £50k and call the police? Were they afraid or sympathetic? I have no idea, but the idea that people were protecting him IF he is guilty of the murders and crimes he has been accused of bothers me (and video shown before today's events of him running off gun in hand and throwing a home made explosive or grenade does make that look pretty conclusive)

I am sure I am not alone in being shocked and horrified by this today.

[eFestivals]

Two coppers are shot dead and yet again the media are sparking a "debate" on should all the police be armed. The press never seem to ask the right questions like if they were armed would they be alive. Probably not, so what is there to debate?

when the police wrongly shoot civilians dead - which happens more than the TV news might have you believe - do the same people call for civilians to be armed to protect themselves from the police?

[Spindles]

Yeah, I take comfort in the comments of Ed209, while that is the majority view for both the police and the public I don't think we need to worry too much. I always just have concern about knee jerk reaction policy.

[Kowalski]

Two coppers are shot dead and yet again the media are sparking a "debate" on should all the police be armed. The press never seem to ask the right questions like if they were armed would they be alive. Probably not, so what is there to debate?

[Spartacus Mars]

when the police wrongly shoot civilians dead - which happens more than the TV news might have you believe - do the same people call for civilians to be armed to protect themselves from the police?

[eFestivals]

I've been trying to find the stats for this. Can you share some examples?

For mainland Britain I can find two instances since 2005 where the police have shot dead unarmed people. One is DeMenzies in 2005. The other is Anthony Grainger in 2012.

It might be the case that it's only those two. In the same period,. how many instances have there been of coppers being shot dead? (also just two I believe).

The point I'm making is that it's not the one sided thing that incidents like yesterday end up suggesting to most people, where there's blanket news coverage of how sad it is (it is) and how brave those coppers were (something I could argue against).

Meanwhile, also yesterday, three generations of a family were killed in a house fire that appears to have been an arson attack, and where the old bill had had complaints about threats from the guy who has been arrested over the fire, and because they've referred themselves to the IPCC there's a very strong suggestion that the old bill might have failed in their duty to protect that family. This hardly got any coverage at all.

And also yesterday, it was announced that two soldiers had been killed in Afghanistan. Again, very little coverage.

What happened to those two coppers yesterday was awful .... but the establishment is trying to play us over it, by playing down the many instances where that establishment fails members of society, while making a huge thing of the very small number of instances where a member of society (for whatever reasons) takes on that establishment.

[sifi]

See police with machine guns everyday at work. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[Spindles]

I think that is fair comment. I think we all broadly agree that we don't want UK police routinely armed for our various personal reasons as well.

The fire reminds me very much of stories about people who have suffered harassment and have been ignored, fobbed off and told to stop acting like victims.

Yesterday's police shooting just has echoes (for me) of how rough my neighbourhood has got in recent years and the conversations I overhear outside my front window that I wish I didn't.

[eFestivals]

See police with machine guns everyday at work. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Guns don't kill people, people do.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I don't want to see the police carrying live firearms but how can you say the above?

---------------------

Are stun guns still deemed an unsuitable option for the polis to carry?

[Spartacus Mars]

The point I'm making is that it's not the one sided thing that incidents like yesterday end up suggesting to most people, where there's blanket news coverage of how sad it is (it is) and how brave those coppers were (something I could argue against).

Edited September 19, 2012 by Spartacus Mars

[kaosmark2]

Reports that the police around the country stopped to observe a minutes' silence.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be something to respect those that died, but I hardly think an emergency service taking a break is a sensible idea.

[eFestivals]

What you're suggesting what you suggested is different from what you wrote.

when I turn those non-sensical words into something I'm presuming you're meaning: no it's not.,

You said a lot more innocent people get shot dead by the police than people realise, that I can find it's two people in eight years.

Given that I myself didn't realise one of those cases, you've proven my words true and not anything else.

I'm saying the figures point to the exact opposite.

the fact that you had to look it up gets to show me as right and your words as wrong ... unless you already knew of both of those cases without need of a googled reminder?

By the way, that I can find over exactly the same time-period five police have been shot dead, one stabbed to death, and another murdered by being run-over. I excluded all road traffic accidents and excluded the likes of of the suicide cop Mr Moat shot in the eyeballs.

If road deaths count then professional drivers are the bravest profession in the country.

If deaths by any means count, then construction workers are the bravest profession in the country.

I said shootings. I also said "incidents" and not "deaths".

I also didn't put any time frame around my words.

The police get many thousands of calls and complaints of domestic abuse and violence. It's only with hindsight we know which ones are going to murder three generations of a family.

Likewise it's only with hindsight we get to know which coppers are trigger happy, and which coppers like their truncheon a bit too much.

Tho mostly we don't. If a copper beats the shit out of you in a cell and you wish to complain about it (while still in the cell) then you are visited by that copper's boss (if not also the copper's mates first, for more of the same ). Great system!

If a copper has committed an unlawful killing, he might get the sack for something else - so no record against him of that unlawful killing - and get to keep his pension. Great system.

If a copper shoots a man dead in cold blood, they don't even have to face an IPCC interview. Great system!

Which has reminded me that your two instances is without doubt incorrect - because Mark Duggan was shot dead by police in Tottenham last year, while not in possession of the gun that justified in their minds them shooting him dead. And then of course the old bill have (beyond all doubt!) lied about what happened; and then of course all the coppers involved have refused to co-operate with the IPCC, as have The Met as an organisation, and a court case is currently taking place where they're trying to embed their proven lies as irrefutable facts via the Court.

Edited September 19, 2012 by eFestivals