General News Discussion

[Ed209]

Found em

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19756698

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Found em

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19756698

[eFestivals]

Nothing to do with his offence, but seriously how do some people think they can go on the run? I presume that it takes links or money to drop off the radar. The guy really is an idiot that should have just manned up and faced the consequences. Boy is he in the shit now.

Yeah, I nearly posted "it's not like they were going to get away with it" in response to Ed's post.

They'll throw the book at him, but they would have done if they'd not run away and he'd "manned up". I can't really see the consequences being much different either way.

[Spindles]

He was a teacher who is attracted to children. I'm quite happy for the book to be thrown at him, preferably somewhere around his centre of gravity.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Yeah, I nearly posted "it's not like they were going to get away with it" in response to Ed's post.

They'll throw the book at him, but they would have done if they'd not run away and he'd "manned up". I can't really see the consequences being much different either way.

[eFestivals]

He was a teacher who is attracted to children.

in all legal senses that's defo true, but we're all surely smart enough to know that the reality of that "attracted to children" might be something very different.

15 year olds can be much more mature both physically and emotionally, and it's not like a switch is flipped on a kid on the day of their 16th birthday that stops them being one of the 'children' and starts therm being an adult.

I'm not trying to defend what he's done, but your choice of words pushes his offences very much into one place when the reality (tho perhaps not the legal reality) might be something very different.

[eFestivals]

So you dont think adding a child abduction charge is going to make things any worse?

yep, I guess it does.

But it's not like he's tied her up and bundled her into a van, is it? Sadly, a court of probably going to work by the letter of the law and treat it pretty much as tho he has tho - whatever the real situation might be.

I agree with how and where the lines are set for these sorts of things - because I can't think how to better set those lines - but it still doesn't mean that a case which uses those lines is going to reach the right conclusion for reality in a case which is close to those lines.

As I was saying earlier in the week, the disparity in consequences for what can be just a day difference in age makes me uncomfortable.

[abdoujaparov]

in all legal senses that's defo true, but we're all surely smart enough to know that the reality of that "attracted to children" might be something very different.

15 year olds can be much more mature both physically and emotionally, and it's not like a switch is flipped on a kid on the day of their 16th birthday that stops them being one of the 'children' and starts therm being an adult.

I'm not trying to defend what he's done, but your choice of words pushes his offences very much into one place when the reality (tho perhaps not the legal reality) might be something very different.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

a point illustrated perfectly by the fact that in France he had committed no criminal offence as the age of consent is 15....

[Rufus Gwertigan]

he was a teacher who was attracted to one specific teenager. Who, from what know, was also attracted to the teacher.

slightly different

[Rufus Gwertigan]

We don't know if they have had sex or any sexual activity...

[Spindles]

It is wrong for him to take her from her home without her parents' knowledge, take her out of the country, not contact her parents, not respond to the media campaign which makes it clear that her parents are concerned....even without the sexual aspect everything he has done is wrong, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would defend that.

[feral chile]

not that it's much of a defense, but I remember when I was first in love... really in love... and it was almost as if the rest of the world doesn't exist. It really didn't. Maybe he should know better at 30 years old, but maybe he's somewhat immature... who knows.

So far, we haven't any information about him doing anything particularly bad, apart from possibly breaking some rule of his contract as a teacher, which as Neil says, if he wasn't a teacher would be a rather minor episode

[Rufus Gwertigan]

yes, but he's a teacher, and more than a decade older than her, so he's abused his authority.

Though I can understand it must be difficult for teachers, getting to know their pupils really well, and the nature of their job means they'll get involved with them intellectually. It's not really that surprising that feelings develop when people are exchanging ideas, trying to build rapport etc.

same goes for anybody in the caring professions - any kind of supportive role can develop into too close a relationship, because of the dependency involved.

[kaosmark2]

I know many women in their 40's and 50's in abusive or manipulative relationships that make such a wide claim nonsense.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Doesn't that suggest that age is irrelevant to being mature enough to make such decisions and thus, if you can't be too old to make the decision, being too young won't stop you.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Ah Google tells me that she was 14 when this 'started' and he had not been married for a year at that point. While many think that irrelevant I find it quite interesting.

[feral chile]

I totally agree and as I have said earlier it is why I have no sympathy. When I was doing my diploma I had a client I was sexually attracted to. I made the decision to excuse myself on those grounds. The relationship with someone in a position of trust is rarely equal.

But a point is been made about the maturity of the student at 15. A rather damning report has just been released about the gang the were grooming girls in Rochdale. Authorities ignored the girls as they were old enough to make up their own minds at 15, and suffered horrendous abuse in a situation they felt powerless to get out of. I dont buy into the whole idea that a girl at 14/15 is mature enough in this type of relationship. That makes too many presumptions. I know many women in their 40's and 50's in abusive or manipulative relationships that make such a wide claim nonsense.

[eFestivals]

Ah Google tells me that she was 14 when this 'started' and he had not been married for a year at that point. While many think that irrelevant I find it quite interesting.

his parents made comments something along the lines of "we could see him going downhill for a while" or something - so it's probably the case that he's been having some sort of emotional crisis. But of course that crisis could be the result of his feelings for this girl, rather than what caused him to have feelings for her.

I condemn what he's done, but that still doesn't mean that what he's done has been done with malice or to harm - tho it will be treated in law as tho it has been done in that way. The girl involved has her feelings on it all, but those will count for nothing.

What in not-much-different circumstances would be considered joyous - two people in love - is turned by the law into something horrific for all involved. I can't think how something like this could be better handled in law (because there has to be a line somewhere) but I still feel the law is somehow failing to deal with something like this in the right way.

[feral chile]

his parents made comments something along the lines of "we could see him going downhill for a while" or something - so it's probably the case that he's been having some sort of emotional crisis. But of course that crisis could be the result of his feelings for this girl, rather than what caused him to have feelings for her.

I condemn what he's done, but that still doesn't mean that what he's done has been done with malice or to harm - tho it will be treated in law as tho it has been done in that way. The girl involved has her feelings on it all, but those will count for nothing.

What in not-much-different circumstances would be considered joyous - two people in love - is turned by the law into something horrific for all involved. I can't think how something like this could be better handled in law (because there has to be a line somewhere) but I still feel the law is somehow failing to deal with something like this in the right way.

[feral chile]

Yes, it's difficult. We don't want a situation where very young gilrls are exploited, and the courts refuse to accept their vulnerability by insisting they've consented to the abuse, as rufus mentioned in the case he discusses above. but we have to take into account that the age of consent is arbitrary. And therefore so is the definition of a child, and consent, etc.

[abdoujaparov]

There's too much of a kneejerk reaction as soon as 'paedophile' gets mentioned - there are many motives involved, and not all of them are predatory.

That's not to say that children shouldn't have the full protection of the law, however - but maybe each case should be judged on its own merit, which I hope happens.

[abdoujaparov]

e. but we have to take into account that the age of consent is arbitrary. And therefore so is the definition of a child, and consent, etc.

[feral chile]

Let's just be clear, on the face of it, the guy isnt a paedophile.

I agree with the point that vulnerable people should be protected by law. But, as Mr Efestivals says, the case is complex and the law is a blunt instrument

[abdoujaparov]

That's why I put quotation marks around the word. The definition of a paedophile, though, is a person who's sexually attracted to children. And technically she's a child, in the eyes of the law.

Edited September 29, 2012 by abdoujaparov