news & politics:discussion

[Skip997]

So who posting here would refuse a free coffee from a trader in exchange for a favour because it would make them an evil freeloader on a par with a billionaire avoiding taxes?

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

or symbolic of the debate we was having on benefit cheats vs tax cheats...

In the end it all has an impact on joe average

skips coffee has no impact on me . so if we can make the topic more about the top bit than an individual 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

So who posting here would refuse a free coffee from a trader in exchange for a favour because it would make them an evil freeloader on a par with a billionaire avoiding taxes?

depends what the favour was.

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Like tories giving out contracts.

Would you turn down a lucrative government contract ?  just to reverse the question ? 

Genuinely depends on the contract.

If I felt it was to the benefit of people I might accept.

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

But it would, it would add to the cost of your coffee...

Get real.

There's no way the cafe boss is going to up his coffee prices from e.g. £3 to £3 and a penny to cover giving me a couple of free drinks.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

But it would, it would add to the cost of your coffee...

Its not about an individual...  Its a concept.  

ok on the concept benefit vs tax evasion 

 

https://citizen-network.org/library/graphic-benefit-fraud-is-tiny.html

 

so im not worried about the benefits , given that many who receive them actually work , and quite often in low paid jobs such as mine , which we found out during the pandemic were absolutely crucial . 

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

ok on the concept benefit vs tax evasion 

 

https://citizen-network.org/library/graphic-benefit-fraud-is-tiny.html

 

so im not worried about the benefits , given that many who receive them actually work , and quite often in low paid jobs such as mine , which we found out during the pandemic were absolutely crucial . 

Off course benefit fraud is tiny. Partly because it's actually a lot harder to pull off than the Daily Mail/S*n/Express would have us believe.

It's not the 80's anymore.

[Justiceforcedave]

31 minutes ago, Neil said:

something that cost you nothing. punters will pick up the cost of your free cafe food. which makes you as bad as any billionaire - riding on the backs of the less fortunate.

This is such a weird take. Plenty of people work for tickets/food, of course, the cost of that is covered by punters' tickets... who in exchange get to go to a festival that has people working in it... which makes it run. That's how the whole thing works.

Did you know all the 'freeloading' bands also get free food and tickets?
 

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Justiceforcedave said:

Did you know all the 'freeloading' bands also get free food and tickets?
 

They may even get a friendly cafe owner or bar manager giving them a free drink now and again, outrageous!

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

I don't know the credibility of that link but lets go with it..

Tax fraud is 15 times bigger than benefit fraud but on the grand scheme its also tiny.  But your view point on that would be different I guess ? 

Seems to me its as legitimate to be angry about tax fraud as it is benefit fraud.  Both tiny in the overall picture but it comes down to the basics of fairness in our society.

Skip said he can't see why people get angry, I think thats rubbish.   Easy to see why.  its the same reaction we all have to tax fraud.

there were 100s more for reference , as my links never seem to satisfy .....  1 billion is a tiny amount by your own admission and not an issue . Glad we agree 

[steviewevie]

the working masses always get all jizzed up about benefits, thinking they're skivers and scroungers or whatever...and gives the govt carte blanche to cut benefits some more and make life even more miserable for a minority who already are having a very sh*t existence. 

And those unable to work because of mental health problems, they are not doing this by choice. People who have not suffered from anxiety or depression do not understand how disabling these illnesses can be...but Lost is right these people need to be brought back into the workforce because a life out of work can make matters worse, poverty, isolation, low self esteem etc. So there is carrot and stick for all this, and just cutting benefits is not the answer, needs to be better health care and incentives to help, but these things cost.

Also need to work out why so many people's mental health has deteriorated, especially kids and young people. I guess it's a whole load of things, social media, unrealistic expectations, sh*t outlook, high house prices and rents forcing many to stay with parents longer than what is probably healthy, climate disaster stuff etc etc. But whatever it is, it isn't made up.

 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

We only agree if you agree to my point that tax fraud is also relatively tiny.

Your link was fine for the context of the discussion.  

14 billion different ? I guess in terms of the entire economy but that pays for the junior doctor pay rise many times over . wearas the benefit issue doesn't cover it once 

[steviewevie]

Baby Macron

[Skip997]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

the working masses always get all jizzed up about benefits, thinking they're skivers and scroungers or whatever...and gives the govt carte blanche to cut benefits some more and make life even more miserable for a minority who already are having a very sh*t existence. 

And those unable to work because of mental health problems, they are not doing this by choice. People who have not suffered from anxiety or depression do not understand how disabling these illnesses can be...but Lost is right these people need to be brought back into the workforce because a life out of work can make matters worse, poverty, isolation, low self esteem etc. So there is carrot and stick for all this, and just cutting benefits is not the answer, needs to be better health care and incentives to help, but these things cost.

Also need to work out why so many people's mental health has deteriorated, especially kids and young people. I guess it's a whole load of things, social media, unrealistic expectations, sh*t outlook, high house prices and rents forcing many to stay with parents longer than what is probably healthy, climate disaster stuff etc etc. But whatever it is, it isn't made up.

 

Out of reactions, but this is a superb post.

Bolded bit - I'm fully aware.

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Its either an issue or its not ?   choose

1 billion not an issue 15 billion more of an issue 100 billion a bloody big issue , it scales according to amount 

[Skip997]

3 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

14 billion different ? I guess in terms of the entire economy but that pays for the junior doctor pay rise many times over . wearas the benefit issue doesn't cover it once 

Spot on.

This is something too many people don't understand or in Barry's case refuse to understand.

Once more for those at the back/hard of hearing/right wing twats:

PEOPLE ON BENEFITS (rightly or "wrongly") ARE NOT TO BLAME

[lost]

Those links always lump tax avoidance in with tax evasion and then include things like people putting money in private penions (which you effectivley have to do now a days) and legitmate business expenses in with the avoidance number so it looks massive.

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, lost said:

Those links always lump tax avoidance in with tax evasion and then include things like people putting money in private penions (which you effectivley have to do now a days) and legitmate business expenses in with the avoidance number so it looks massive.

To my mind tax avoidance is the same as tax evasion, how much f**king money do corporations need? 

Never understood being able to write off business expenses TBH

[lost]

3 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

To my mind tax avoidance is the same as tax evasion,

You've never put money in a pension, isa, bought any duty free or even say rushed out to fill your car with petrol when fuel duty is going up the next day? All tax avoidance.

Edited January 9 by lost

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, lost said:

You've never put money in a pension, isa, bought any duty free or even say rushed out to fill your car with petrol when fuel duty is going up the next day? All tax avoidance.

Only the bolded example

[lazyred]

28 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

So we don't agree.

Its the same issue.  Its the loss of government intake.  How you fix that doesn't really matter.  Its all money that is otherwise due in.

There is no difference between the guy not paying his tax and the guy falsely claiming benefits.  How you some how separate the two from your thinking where you would ignore one and not the other is madness. 

Its the same crime!

Both fraud but most people would look at how much was defrauded and the personal circumstances. Tax fraud is treated more leniently, corporations get away with making an arrangement to pay some in. Some benefit fraud is because of inflexible rules and chaotic lives.

 

[Skip997]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

So is that a rule you apply to all the contracts you take ? 

Personally yes.

But I'm not in charge of what contracts we take.

I have in the past turned down work which went against my beliefs/morals and it's cost me 1000's

[Ozanne]

1 hour ago, Skip997 said:

Spot on.

This is something too many people don't understand or in Barry's case refuse to understand.

Once more for those at the back/hard of hearing/right wing twats:

PEOPLE ON BENEFITS (rightly or "wrongly") ARE NOT TO BLAME

Sadly that’s one way the right feel like they can win by telling us it’s people less fortunate that are the issue when in reality it’s them. They try to deflect away from themselves hoping that the public won’t notice how corrupt and nasty they are. 

[steviewevie]

if this tax avoidance/fraud include legal ways to avoid paying tax like pensions/isas/child tax credits etc then it doesn't really seem fair to include that. Plus...how many times have people been paid or paid someone cash in hand know what I mean nudge nudge say no more?

[steviewevie]

I've been both a freeloader and a tax avoider...so f**kyou.