news & politics:discussion

[lazyred]

15 hours ago, cellar said:

I think you keep pushing for this stance to try to draw people into an argument on your own terms, because you realise its impossible to defend Israels actions over the last 50 years. I don't think anyone on this thread has celebrated what Hamas did though - unless you can provide an example?

There isn't much condemnation of Hamas who clearly target civilians. Even if you accept they are occupied they act outside the norms of international law. 

[pink_triangle]

36 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

If he can’t make a difference , which as you say is likely , he needs to make the call that shows morals and yeah maybe it loses him votes . Maybe calling out war crimes as in Ukraine isn’t as unpopular as you think .  This is 2 million people with bombs reigning down on them . 

The call you would like him to make would split his own party, it would stir up the anti semetism stuff and link him with Jez, something the Tory’s would love him to do. As I said I’m completely fine costing votes (maybe an election) if it helps the situation, fact is it doesn’t save one life.

If Starmer then navigates through an election, he has isolated all his allies (by taking an alternative view) and Israel doesn’t let him near the negotiating table. 
 

As Ukraine has shown people will take interest at first and then quickly turn a blind eye as other priorities take over. While I think your views on this come from the right place , I don’t think they fit the real world that a PM has to work in.

[Ozanne]

40 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

At risk of repeating myself … I expect this sh*t from the Tory’s not the Labour Party 

It’s double standards, you hold the Labour leader to a much higher standard.

Starmer has come out with further comments which I posted yesterday, so what more do you want?

[lazyred]

33 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Again I’ll repeat hamas are equally responsible and justification for killing any civilians is 0 . 

After the Isreals pulled out of Gaza the Palestinians didn't try and build a peaceful coexistence. They elected Hamas who used the territory to launch attacks mainly on Jewish citizens. They also base themselves in civilian areas so they die in the retaliation. 

What do you think Isreal should do instead of attacking Hamas?

[Ozanne]

22 minutes ago, lazyred said:

There isn't much condemnation of Hamas who clearly target civilians. Even if you accept they are occupied they act outside the norms of international law. 

People will just say ‘both sides are in the wrong’ and then just talk about Israel without saying anything else about the atrocities that Hamas committed at the start of all this. 

[Neil]

26 minutes ago, lazyred said:

There isn't much condemnation of Hamas who clearly target civilians. Even if you accept they are occupied they act outside the norms of international law. 

the norms of international law would  have them being allowed a normal nation state, and the ability to wage normal war.

[lazyred]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

the norms of international law would  have them being allowed a normal nation state, and the ability to wage normal war.

Most attempts in the past to reduce tension and achieve a peaceful settlement have been derailed by Arab militants. I know Jewish factions also oppose peace and the illegal West Bank settlements are an obstacle to peace. But these groups haven't always had such influence on the Isreali govt. 

I still think the Isreals want security and peace in that order. Ending the occupation is code for Isreal not existing. 

[Crazyfool01]

17 minutes ago, lazyred said:

After the Isreals pulled out of Gaza the Palestinians didn't try and build a peaceful coexistence. They elected Hamas who used the territory to launch attacks mainly on Jewish citizens. They also base themselves in civilian areas so they die in the retaliation. 

What do you think Isreal should do instead of attacking Hamas?

Was it a free and fair election ? Did they have a choice ? It needs a concerted effort from everyone to work toward peace not backing one side or the other because both are commiting atrocities.  

[Crazyfool01]

22 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It’s double standards, you hold the Labour leader to a much higher standard.

Starmer has come out with further comments which I posted yesterday, so what more do you want?

The same standards … and to condemn a full scale invasion 

[Neil]

16 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Most attempts in the past to reduce tension and achieve a peaceful settlement have been derailed by Arab militants. I know Jewish factions also oppose peace and the illegal West Bank settlements are an obstacle to peace. But these groups haven't always had such influence on the Isreali govt. 

I still think the Isreals want security and peace in that order. Ending the occupation is code for Isreal not existing. 

I'm aware that the Palestinians have been an obstacle to resolution and I get Israels reluctance.

[pink_triangle]

I think sometimes we get the impression that those on the left are the “caring” ones and those on the right the “bad guys”. Through my job i have met some ukip supporters who do amazing charity work and some horrible left wing people so clearly things are more complicated.

I note a tweet from one of the Novara people which she sensibly deleted.  You wonder why people would put it out in the first place 

 

'Today should be a day of celebration for supporters of democracy and human rights worldwide, as Gazans break out of their open-air prison and Hamas fighters cross into their colonisers' territory. The struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless and we shouldn't apologise for it.'

[Neil]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I think sometimes we get the impression that those on the left are the “caring” ones and those on the right the “bad guys”. Through my job i have met some ukip supporters who do amazing charity work and some horrible left wing people so clearly things are more complicated.

I note a tweet from one of the Novara people which she sensibly deleted.  You wonder why people would put it out in the first place 

 

'Today should be a day of celebration for supporters of democracy and human rights worldwide, as Gazans break out of their open-air prison and Hamas fighters cross into their colonisers' territory. The struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless and we shouldn't apologise for it.'

Along with everything else They seem to have missed that there's no democracy for Gaza 

[Ozanne]

26 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

The same standards … and to condemn a full scale invasion 

Nope, you've admitted it yourself, you hold them to different standards. 

[Ozanne]

10 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think sometimes we get the impression that those on the left are the “caring” ones and those on the right the “bad guys”. Through my job i have met some ukip supporters who do amazing charity work and some horrible left wing people so clearly things are more complicated.

I note a tweet from one of the Novara people which she sensibly deleted.  You wonder why people would put it out in the first place 

 

'Today should be a day of celebration for supporters of democracy and human rights worldwide, as Gazans break out of their open-air prison and Hamas fighters cross into their colonisers' territory. The struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless and we shouldn't apologise for it.'

I saw that too, it was very distasteful.

[Ommadawn]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Nope, you've admitted it yourself, you hold them to different standards. 

What on earth is wrong with that. Why shouldn't a potential Labour PM be held to a higher standard than the current Tory one?

[lost]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

 You wonder why people would put it out in the first place 

Because its what they really think. There are ridiculous double standards applied to this conflict that are not applied to any other.

The Balkans were Christian until the Ottoman empire moved in but nobody would suggest Serbia tried to decolonise Kosovo.

Equally after 9/11, No one was arguing for a proportional response where the U.S were only allowed to kill the same number in Afghanistan as had been killed in the twin powers. 

The only way a war can end is with a peace deal or one side winning and whilst the Palestinian position is "from the rivers to the sea" i.e Israel ceasing to exist there isn't going to be a peace deal. It is what it is.

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Nope, you've admitted it yourself, you hold them to different standards. 

No I haven't.they both murder 

[steviewevie]

What do people expect Israel to do in response to the Hamas attack?

[lazyred]

38 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Was it a free and fair election ? Did they have a choice ? It needs a concerted effort from everyone to work toward peace not backing one side or the other because both are commiting atrocities.  

I wasn't t fair to the gazans about the election. It seems to have been fair. It was very close between Hamas and the palestian authority. I think there was a reaction against the PA who were seen as corrupt and Hamas were promoting social programs and help for ordinary people. Hamas took full power after a civil war with the PA. Isreal wouldn't deal with them and it all went downhill. 

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, lazyred said:

I wasn't t fair to the gazans about the election. It seems to have been fair. It was very close between Hamas and the palestian authority. I think there was a reaction against the PA who were seen as corrupt and Hamas were promoting social programs and help for ordinary people. Hamas took full power after a civil war with the PA. Isreal wouldn't deal with them and it all went downhill. 

I thought Israel govt were happy to leave Gaza to Hamas so they can concentrate on issues in West Bank?

Edited October 15, 2023 by steviewevie

[pink_triangle]

49 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

What on earth is wrong with that. Why shouldn't a potential Labour PM be held to a higher standard than the current Tory one?

I hold Starmer to much higher standards to Sunak and believe he will deliver on them. That’s why I will be voting labour in the next election. I think he cares more about health, education, poverty, housing and many other important things.

However what people are asking Starmer to say (with most accepting he has no influence and can’t do anything) is something that splits the Labour Party, potentially loses an election , distances himself for potential allies and reduces his potential to influence if he does get power.

This is political chess and Starmer has to think several moves ahead with anything he says. How will the public perceive it, how will the party perceive it, how will the media twist it, how will other foreign leaders act etc. If you want to be leader of the opposition forever you can’t always say what you want all the time. 

[Ozanne]

It’s fair to think back to 9/11 as the events have similarities. There was no way after those attacks the US weren’t going to do anything and in the same way there is no way that Israel aren’t. The level of feeling for Israelis at the moment is so strong that a lot will probably think about doing something in retaliation and it’s easy for people like us that haven’t been involved to say what should be happening but we haven’t got that emotional connection to the situation.

We (world leaders) can try to steer the response towards one that isn’t abysmal and I assume that’s what is happening but they might not be ready to hear that yet. 

[pink_triangle]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It’s fair to think back to 9/11 as the events have similarities. There was no way after those attacks the US weren’t going to do anything and in the same way there is no way that Israel aren’t. The level of feeling for Israelis at the moment is so strong that a lot will probably think about doing something in retaliation and it’s easy for people like us that haven’t been involved to say what should be happening but we haven’t got that emotional connection to the situation.

We (world leaders) can try to steer the response towards one that isn’t abysmal and I assume that’s what is happening but they might not be ready to hear that yet. 

Unfortunately we are in a situation where there isn’t a good solution, just less terrible ones. Hopefully we are doing what we can to move the dial in the right direction.

[squirrelarmy]

22 hours ago, Skip997 said:

So Israel say use this safe route out and then bomb it.

You need to check your sources. The evidence is emerging that Hamas are using car bombs on the evacuation routes and blaming the attack on Israel. 
 

Hamas don’t care about the Palestinian people. They’re just pawns in their crusade against non Muslims. 
 

 

[Crazyfool01]

36 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

You need to check your sources. The evidence is emerging that Hamas are using car bombs on the evacuation routes and blaming the attack on Israel. 
 

Hamas don’t care about the Palestinian people. They’re just pawns in their crusade against non Muslims. 
 

 

it says clearly at the bottom its up for speculation