news & politics:discussion

[Ozanne]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

easier for state to intervene and act to keep prices down when get supply side issues such as now? Helps as we move towards net zero?

We can legislate to keep prices down anyway, the Tories just chose not too. 

[Neil]

Just now, Ozanne said:

We can legislate to keep prices down anyway, the Tories just chose not too. 

we can pay direct or pay via our taxes.

[steviewevie]

In the end...I think a lot of people don't believe or trust labour, especially when they propose big spending pledges...and the tories attack them on this over and over again, where's the money coming from etc. There was a lot of good stuff in labour's last two manifestos under Corbyn, but especially in 2019 people just didn't really believe it all, there was just too much of it that people didn't take it seriously. The free broadband everywhere thing was a big bold idea that would have gone some way to reducing some of the inequalities in this country, which became apparent during lockdown, and despite it all being costed apparenly people were just saying wtf is this to labour people out campaigning. So, I guess labour under starmer, rightly or wrongly, are trying to be careful and show that they would be prudent with public spending etc etc. That was the tactic labour took in 97 too, and maybe they think it will work again. Starmer even brought up the magic money tree thing. So, I don't really agree with it...but not sure I'm the person they're trying to appeal to, they want those voters who switched to tory in last election, but they also need to somehow win over tory voters in safe tory seats and try and win some of those, a very tall task.

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, Neil said:

so there we go, free energy??

No, but caps...like in France.

I guess they can do that without nationalising?

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

The free broadband everywhere thing was a big bold idea that would have gone some way to reducing some of the inequalities in this country

no, cos access to the net isn't a limiting factor?

the limit is with access to devices to use on the net, eg, laptops.

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, Neil said:

we can pay direct or pay via our taxes.

it's whichever is fairer. The poorest are going to suffer the most, so whether it's benefits or caps both paid from public purse to help spread the pain more fairly.

[Neil]

Just now, steviewevie said:

No, but caps...like in France.

I guess they can do that without nationalising?

in france the govt has been in control of all of its energy policy for decades, it doesn't mean the uk could suddenly fix prices in the uk (if the uk had tried fixing prices we'd now be suffering regular blackouts).

[gary1979666]

9 minutes ago, Neil said:

we can pay direct or pay via our taxes.

Exactly - either everyone contributes to it via taxes or just those who use the rail service via the rail fares (which are already heavily subsidised).

The problem is that the the income from railfares has dropped due to the pandemic and has only re-risen part of the way (homeworking, etc). so will likely never be what it was.  Who should foot the bill?  Sounds like we'll have to pay the drivers, etc more too - that money has to come from somewhere.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

it's whichever is fairer.

nationalis everything if you want 'fair'.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, gary1979666 said:

Exactly - either everyone contributes to it via taxes or just those who use the rail service via the rail fares (which are already heavily subsidised).

The problem is that the the income from railfares has dropped due to the pandemic and has only re-risen part of the way (homeworking, etc). so will likely never be what it was.  Who should foot the bill?  Sounds like we'll have to pay the drivers, etc more too - that money has to come from somewhere.

if rail fares go up to pay for better wages, everyone hates the govt.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Exactly - either everyone contributes to it via taxes or just those who use the rail service via the rail fares (which are already heavily subsidised).

The problem is that the the income from railfares has dropped due to the pandemic and has only re-risen part of the way (homeworking, etc). so will likely never be what it was.  Who should foot the bill?  Sounds like we'll have to pay the drivers, etc more too - that money has to come from somewhere.

magic money tree.

Trains need improving, and they need to be affordable. We need to get people out of their cars. The argument is whether everyone foots the bill, or just train passengers. I think it should be everyone, because it is for the good of the country.

[fraybentos1]

14 minutes ago, Neil said:

we can pay direct or pay via our taxes.

You can say that about anything. By that logic you could be against the NHS. Public ownership means no fat cats to make millions while fuel bills triple for most average joes

[gary1979666]

With the pay deals getting discussed, a quick story from schools - my other half is a primary head and she has said that her team are happy about the new % increase for next year....unfortunately, with no increase in funding, she needs to make cuts to the equivalent of 2.5 TA's.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by gary1979666
typo

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

nationalis everything if you want 'fair'.

ok, I'm not talking about nationalise here...just with how we deal with cost of living crisis. At moment they are giving people money to get through it, which is right, but may not be enough for a lot of people, so will need to be more. This all comes from the state, from taxes/borrowing. Same would be if we had a price cap.

[Ozanne]

Price cap the energy firms to limits the excessive profits they are raking in and keep prices low which will then give people more to spend in the wider economy. 
 

Also tax the rich more. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Ozanne

[mattiloy]

Rail and water are natural monopolies with pretty inelastic demand.

The supposed benefits of the market are that competition and consumer choice means that firms need to invest in their product and price it competitively to maintain their profitability and deliver shareholder value.

With the conditions above, these incentives on the firm are absent. In effect they can deliver a shitty service and charge extortionate prices and there is no mechanism for the customer to punish them. And that is indeed what we see for both water and rail.

Of course, it would still be a natural monopoly and have inelastic demand if state run, but the state owned enterprise’s raison d’etre wouldn’t be solely chasing profit and maximising shareholder value and even if it were, all that profit would go back to the treasury instead of being siphoned off to shareholders.

Edited July 25, 2022 by mattiloy

[Neil]

51 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

magic money tree.

Trains need improving, and they need to be affordable. We need to get people out of their cars. The argument is whether everyone foots the bill, or just train passengers. I think it should be everyone, because it is for the good of the country.

the railways are maxed out, they cant be improved unless we build more track which is very expensive. currently the subsidy for rail benefits a very small portion of the population.

[lost]

Happy with targeted payouts to help the poorest during exceptional circumstances where energy is concerned. Don’t really fancy taxes going up so some guy can heat his swimming pool on the cheap all year around. 

[Neil]

Just now, lost said:

Happy with targeted payouts to help the poorest during exceptional circumstances where energy is concerned. Don’t really fancy taxes going up so some guy can heat his swimming pool on the cheap all year around. 

this ^ 

[Neil]

forget about high gas prices , the future is hydrogen.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

forget about high gas prices , the future is hydrogen.

Try telling people to forget about high gas prices this winter. 

[Neil]

Just now, Ozanne said:

Try telling people to forget about high gas prices this winter. 

i'm going to go for a bit of solar powered heating, powering a heater from my mini solar set-up.

[Neil]

a good time for labour to talk about growth as it'll help people notice the tories are shit at growth.

 

 

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, Neil said:

i'm going to go for a bit of solar powered heating, powering a heater from my mini solar set-up.

heating needs shit loads of energy.

Anyway, it's all about heat pumps...whatever they are.

[steviewevie]

Grow back better.

BBC R4 lunchtime news leading with Starmer's speech.