Ched Evans

[zahidf]

It's taken a while, but well spotted.

In a case like the Evans one, it gets even more 'dangerous'. If a woman has willingly slept with two guys but then has dealings with the police about that night's encounter, how willing might she be to admit to those old bill what she's willingly done when that is likely to reflect back on her badly in the eyes of normal sexist society?

My take is that in a consequence-free situation the woman isn't likely to want to admit to a stranger that she's just slept with two guys. That can pan out into rape allegation which puts a consequence on it, where I'd hope a person would be fair-minded enough to then come clean - but at the same time I doubt that all would.

Um, i don't think a woman would make a rape accusation to counter being thought off as a 'slag' in society eyes in most circumstances.

And a woman wouldn't be talking to the police about her sexual activities unless she or whoever found her in a hotel room thought there had been a sexual assault.

[eFestivals]

Yup... and rightly so....

all hail Barry's world-compassing morality. If he had his way he'd have the moral-police on the streets, extreme Muslim stylee.

[zahidf]

all hail Barry's world-compassing morality. If he had his way he'd have the moral-police on the streets, extreme Muslim stylee.

To be fair to him, Evan's behaviour is that of a prick ( even in the very unlikely circumstance of him not being a rapist)

[eFestivals]

Um, i don't think a woman would make a rape accusation to counter being thought off as a 'slag' in society eyes in most circumstances.

and neither do I.

It's the "in most circumstances" bit that worries me though, because that also means "they will in some circumstances".

And a woman wouldn't be talking to the police about her sexual activities unless she or whoever found her in a hotel room thought there had been a sexual assault.

I refer you to the Evans case.

She didn't think they'd been a sexual assault. She woke up in a room and didn't know how she'd got there and had lost her bag, so pursued it thru the police.

As far as i'm aware (I've not read all I might have done about the case), it was only Evans and the other guy telling the police what had gone on that led to the police charging the guys.

Nothing of that by itself says the conviction is wrong of course, but it's within the possibilities that this is a case where, as you recognised, a woman might make a rape accusation to counter being thought off as a 'slag'.

You can recognise that 'might'. That can lead to a false accusation of rape, and if it was you having that accusation against you I doubt you're be thinking that it was OK that the law gave almost-encouragement to a person making such a heinous false accusation.

And just because of the possibility of people making it up for themselves, I'm going to state again that I can see this is a bad bit of law, while also understanding how it's come about.

[eFestivals]

To be fair to him, Evan's behaviour is that of a prick ( even in the very unlikely circumstance of him not being a rapist)

Why? Are adults not allowed to have consentual sex in the way they they want to?

If you can call someone a prick for liking threesomes, then you're also the same prick for having your own sexual preferences (whatever they might be).

Edited January 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

You are a idiot....

yeah, the idiot is the one allowing consentual adults to do what they like, and the sensible one is the one saying what is wrong with adults having their own minds.

[eFestivals]

If you wasn't an idiot... Which you are...

Your car scenario would of described the guy as racing around a playground doing hand brake turns... And then moaning when he finally knocks over a kid...

No.

There is zero wrong with consentual sex, even if its the 3-some that you're so disapproving of. There is similarly zero wrong with driving sensibly.

But hey, don't let that stop you being dumb.

[eFestivals]

There can be tons "wrong" with it... But your the sort of person that views passing women around like meat is a decent thing to do... So I wouldn't expect you to understand that people have higher expectations of themselves and others....

I'm of the opinion that adults know their own minds.

But as you're of the opinion that adults don't know their own minds, you'll be thinking yourself sensible and being wrong by your own method.

Never mind, eh?

[eFestivals]

I think large amounts of people are total idiots... But you also push this view point so often...

So stalemate....

I think people are often idiots, yep. But the difference between you and me?

I'm willing to accept their right to be idiots, and don't wish to see them unnecessarily legally penalised for being an idiot if there's no good reason to penalise them.

[feral chile]

The thing about being a slag in society's eyes - don't forget, we're socialised. We can judge ourselves through society's eyes. So if someone's done something they regret, and it's something they disapprove of/don't believe they are capable of, they'll start to look for reasons why it happened.

it would work both ways - the woman might decide she couldn't have possibly consented to something she would have judged others harshly for, and the man likewise will not want to think of himself as a rapist.

Memory is notoriously unreliable at the best of times. And our brains lie to us all the time.

It fills in gaps.

And protects us from harsh reality.

Edited January 16, 2015 by feral chile

[LondonTom]

There can be tons "wrong" with it... But your the sort of person that views passing women around like meat as decent thing to do... So I wouldn't expect you to understand that people have higher expectations of themselves and others....

What if it was two women and a guy? Is the guy being passed around like "meat"?

Edited January 16, 2015 by LondonTom

[russycarps]

Barry Fish is Oliver Cromwell and I claim my £5

[gary1979666]

What if it was two women and a guy? Is the guy being passed around like "meat"?

Sausage?

[zahidf]

Why? Are adults not allowed to have consentual sex in the way they they want to?

If you can call someone a prick for liking threesomes, then you're also the same prick for having your own sexual preferences (whatever they might be).

What he did wasn't a threesome. And him getting his friends to secretly take photos from the window. And the whole non-consensual thing,

AsFabia Bates, director of Survivors Network, said about Evans, “he doesn’t understand what rape is”.

[eFestivals]

What he did wasn't a threesome. And him getting his friends to secretly take photos from the window. And the whole non-consensual thing,

Whoa!!!!

We got to this exact point talking about a hypothetical threesome, fully consentual. If the voyeurism was concentual too then no crime is committed.

The fact of your distaste at a 3-some or voyeurism has fuck all to do with whether any law has been broken or whether the woman was raped.

(and from the little I've read of the case it was defo a 3-some - could Evans 'join in'? - tho the court decided it was non-concentual. The only contemporaneous version of the sex involved that we have is the version of the blokes)

AsFabia Bates, director of Survivors Network, said about Evans, “he doesn’t understand what rape is”.

a comment that is only correct if the court has reached the correct decision.

If Evans version is true, he may or may not know what rape is, but he'll know that he hasn't committed rape in the instance we're talking about.

Edited January 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: if the voyeurism thing wasn't concentual and the sex with Evans was, then Evans is guilty of nothing at all, and the voyeur is guilty of something much lesser than rape.

The way you're wording things now is saying to me that just the 3-some/voyeurism circumstances is more than enough for Evans to be banged up and the key thrown away. You seem to be forgetting what the crime of rape actually is.

Edited January 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

PS: if the voyeurism thing wasn't concentual and the sex with Evans was, then Evans is guilty of nothing at all, and the voyeur is guilty of something much lesser than rape.

The way you're wording things now is saying to me that just the 3-some/voyeurism circumstances is more than enough for Evans to be banged up and the key thrown away. You seem to be forgetting what the crime of rape actually is.

Nope, i said above that he acted like a prick even if he wasn't a rapist ( which I don't believe, i very much think the jury verdict and two subsequent appeal hearings are bang on the money about him). The non-consensual voyerism is that part of him being a prick regardless.

[eFestivals]

i said above that he acted like a prick even if he wasn't a rapist

and I said if he wasn't as rapist he's no more of a prick for his choice of sexual acts than you are for yours.

The non-consensual voyerism is that part of him being a prick regardless.

did he tell his mate to watch thru the window, then?

(I don't know either way, but was presuming not).

[russycarps]

why does having a consensual threesome make you a prick?

[fred quimby]

But Mrs scruff is always drunk!

She has to be

[Ted Dansons Wig]

why does having a consensual threesome make you a prick?

lucky is the word that comes to mind

[russycarps]

lucky is the word that comes to mind

I'm not sure gazing upon ched evans hairy swingers would make me feel particularly lucky to be honest...

[Ted Dansons Wig]

I'm not sure gazing upon ched evans hairy swingers would make me feel particularly lucky to be honest...

True. Hadn't realised his involvement was part of the deal. You've spoilt my afternoon now

[zahidf]

and I said if he wasn't as rapist he's no more of a prick for his choice of sexual acts than you are for yours.

did he tell his mate to watch thru the window, then?

(I don't know either way, but was presuming not).

He told his mates to wait outside the window with the phone to take photos as 'something was going to happen' ( this was before he met her of course)...

He didn't tell her about them, no.

the threesome doesn't make him a prick. I never said that!

[eFestivals]

He told his mates to wait outside the window with the phone to take photos as 'something was going to happen' ( this was before he met her of course)...

He didn't tell her about them, no.

the threesome doesn't make him a prick. I never said that!

thanks for clarifying, I'd misunderstood what you were getting at.