The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I had intended to give you all the benefit of my vast wisdom on these amazing new powers that we are being offered (I want invisibility) but I have decided to go to bed instead

on a lighter note, I get to go & see Mogwai, Frightened Rabbit & Franz Ferdinand on Sunday for £15 thanks to all this independence malarkey (also Amy McDonald & him & her out of Deacon Blue ) but like I'm always saying - there will be good times & bad times

sweet dreams all

[Wooderson]

Nordiegeddon in Ehdinbrah this weekend you say. Awful scenes.

[Wooderson]

Just think of all the icons for the English language that are gonna have to change. Will someone think of the admins???

[LJS]

Something for Neil to have a wee rant about.

"Why an independent Scotland could become the richest country on Earth"

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-an-independent-scotland-could-become-the-richest-country-on-earth-9096120.html]

Edited September 10, 2014 by LJS

[TenInchToenaiIs]

Why on earth are they not allowing people who lived in Scotland most of their lives but moved to england to vote?

[LJS]

Why on earth are they not allowing people who lived in Scotland most of their lives but moved to england to vote?

Because it isn't workable. How long is it ok to be out the country? How do you prove intent to return. The principle is that those who live and work in Scotland should have the vote. So for example my brother who has lived in England for over 40years has no vote. But the French & Italian girls at my work who are settled here & bringing up kids do. That seems right to me.

There will be anomolies of course but I don't see how to avoid that in practice.

Edited September 11, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Hold yer horses there fella! I was just interjecting with some light comic relief. I was in no way entering this debate. My personal thoughts on Scottish Independence are based on nothing at all other than my gut, as im not read up on the details of it all, pros cons and otherwise. Its not really an issue that interests me too much.

The only thing I would have to say is that if Scots want it they should take it and dont be scared to go it alone. Im sure they will find their way and be grand. Many countries in the past that have done it survived and are OK.

Yep, but no one doubts that Scotland could survive.

The Nats say Scotland will be better than it currently is, just because it's Scotland - but with no actual plan for how it's going to be that utopia, and no reality behind the idea that it'll be better just because it's Scotland.

For months people have been saying that the banks would head south. For months the Nats have been saying that's a baseless scare story and it definitely wouldn't happen.

Do any Scots wish to have a bet with me today about what the banks will do? Let's see how much the yes voters really believe their own claims.

[micawber]

Odds continue to shorten on No from 1/3 yesterday to 1/4 today. The result will not even be close.

[eFestivals]

Fair enough Neil. From your comments that I quoted yesterday I mistakenly thought you were talking shit about you not being welcome in our hospitals and how neither of us were entitled to free medical care when travelling in Europe or across the border. You are now moving this into a potential future situation when I understood we were talking about the current situation ( from your posts ).

When I brought up EHIC, as I said yesterday I already have a card, I was only bringing it up in an attempt to highlight the excellent scheme available ( and already paid for ) to us all.

I`m actually not bad at monopoly but in fairness my kids are young.

So what you're now saying is that you've realised that your EHIC card is worthless for treatment in all foreign country's to an iScotlander, until such time as iScotland joins the inter-governmental agreement that is EHIC?

Good if so, it means some reality has kicked in. No treatment overseas is guaranteed for any iScotlander.

I still do reality tho. .... I do realise that iScotland will probably join the EHIC at some point, it might even be within a month of going indy. I'm guessing it's probably one of the easier organisations for iScotland to join.

But that's just one of 15,000+ international agreements iScotland will have to make for itself to be in the say place as it was the day before indy. Not all of those new agreements will be as easy to make or with as good conditions as exist now - because iScotland will be in a weaker bargaining position for many of them than the position of the UK gives.

[eFestivals]

Oh look, here's sir Ian wood before he lost 8bn barrels of oil

Sir Ian Wood predicts 25bn barrels of oil still t:

Either you have an edited interview there* that is designed to steal your intelligence, or you need to put in a refund request to the exceptional Scottish Education system for your inability to discern simple words.

(* cos I recently watched the whole interview, can't be bothered to watch it again with what you've just posted)

But hey, you just call Wood's consistency him changing his mind.

(PS: I see you've not picked up on the bit where he says even the 15-16Bn only happens if less money is taken by the state [uK, or iS, it matters not] in extraction taxes - so the oil extraction goes up, and the revenue for the state goes down).

[eFestivals]

Of course the House of Lords will be greatly missed in an Independent Scotland

yep, cos politicians always do better and nicer things when there's absolutely no checks and balances on their power, eh?

The House of Lords is as shit as it gets, but it's still a better thing to have in a democracy than the nothing at all that iScotland plans.

[eFestivals]

you are of course correct - although much of the criticism of the yes side from BT (&Neil) has been about he total amount of reserves

Yep, that's why I've twice posted a graph of the falling oil REVENUES, because I'm concentrating on just the amount of oil. :lol:

FFS, you're starting to spout made up bollocks just like Salmond.

At the end of the day, there's only 12Bn barrels to get unless the extraction taxes are cut - so in the end, any extra oil above that 12Bn brings very diminished returns for the state (whichever state, UK or iS, it matters not).

These are things you'd know if you'd listened to Wood each time he's spoken his very consistent line.

(I can't say I'd ever heard of Wood until recently, tho I've taken much more trouble to hear his actual words than any yes campaigner ... that, or the Scottish education system is crap, one or other).

[eFestivals]

Nordies in East Belshaft not gonna like giving up the Jack.

Sadly, I think you might be right.

I'll make clear here that any consequences in NI are NOT the responsibility of anything Scotland is doing.

But whichever way the votes goes one side in NI is likely to see it as 'sign' in their favour, and that worries me that troubles might kick off again.

[Wooderson]

Don't think so. Had big issues with "flegs" in last few years. Place is always a powderkeg however so anything could change. Scotland presumably leaving Union makes their claim/justification on remaining weaker I would suggest though.

[eFestivals]

if you want to have a look for yourself the graphs are on pages 40 & 41

I've had a look, there's no graph on either of those pages.

Am happy to look again with the right reference.

the following observation also appears

it's a quote covering (as a whole) all years since 1980-81.

The numbers I gave you showed a fantastic surplus for Scotland for the years 1980 to 1990 (or was it '89. one or other), so that quote is quite possibly correct across those 35 years.

It's not possible to make the same statement for the last 25 years, tho, is it? The position of Scotland is far worse after 1990, because of the falling value of the oil.

The 80s have gone, never to return, and so have those fantastic financial years.

It's the current situation which counts, and there's little to suggest that iScotland could be as financially secure as now unless taxes are raised &/or services are cut - and that's before the banks head south, which you should now know they definitely will.

[eFestivals]

Something for Neil to have a wee rant about.

"Why an independent Scotland could become the richest country on Earth"

I won't waste my time with massive Alex-type fantasies thanks.

I could write some bollocks saying why the Isle of Wight is going to be the next leader of the free world, but it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Edited September 11, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Why on earth are they not allowing people who lived in Scotland most of their lives but moved to england to vote?

Amusingly, all of the (non-rUK) EU citizens who live in Scotland get to vote themselves dis-enfranchised if they vote yes and if Scotland does.

Because while it's "civic nationalism" now, the DIC clearly states it becomes more ethnic following a yes vote.

And like with most of the DIC, few Scots have noticed what it says. They stopped reading after the first sentence, believing a better future is guaranteed via six empty meaningless words.

[russycarps]

Odds continue to shorten on No from 1/3 yesterday to 1/4 today. The result will not even be close.

Wouldnt surprise me if the bookies had access to a sneak preview of the postal votes.

[mrtourette]

Something for Neil to have a wee rant about.

"Why an independent Scotland could become the richest country on Earth"

[url="http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-an-independent-scotland-could-become-the-richest-country-on-earth-9096120.html]

Let me guess, culturally rich? Rich with pride?

Edited September 11, 2014 by mrtourette

[eFestivals]

RBS to move to England if a Yes vote happens... Official now..

The scaremongering Alex kept banging on about is now becoming a reality...

More of this to come ?

Of course Alex will say this official announcement from the horses mouth is just more scaremongering and won't happen...

LMAO

RBS, Lloyds Group, and Standard Life have now all publicly declared that they're heading south if there's a yes vote.

Apparently, when they suggested they might do this it was bluster.

Anyone with half an understanding of what "lender of last resort" means in practice would have known for certain that this would happen.

So is Alex really really thick about economics despite having a degree in economics (tho only half of one, and only a desmond), or has Alex been deliberately misleading the Scottish people?

You (Scotland) decide. It's not like your futures depend on it or anything.

[eFestivals]

Let me guess, culturally rich? Rich with pride?

Nope, richer than any country on earth, because no other country is as clever and as smart as iScotland will be, iScotland will be an exceptional country.

So exceptional, that it will have this fantastic boom despite using another country's currency because Alex has declared it so (and Alex is so exceptional that it will happen), and despite Alex's oiw hired hands saying it's a really really shit thing to do and will bring about the worst possible consequences for Scotland.

So exceptional, because the oil will not decline, the oil will not run out. Alex has declared that that oil will flow like Scottish rivers, and how can reality stop that?

Reality is just a Westminster plot really. Vote YES with confidence.

[lost]

Let me guess, culturally rich? Rich with pride?

Plus if you actually read the article and not just the headline he's selling small state libertarianism which I think is exactly the opposite of what Salmond is promising.

[eFestivals]

Its something of a benchmark moment. It was always clear this would happen but Alex wouldn't admit to it and called it scaremongering.

How can anyone trust him on the other issues when he couldn't be trusted on this one.

Madness....

I can understand why a Scotsman would want independence with all the risks that go with it. I can't accept anyone voting Yes based on anything old Alex as spouted though. That is just loony.

That's because you don't understand what's happening. Only the people who've gone to the many grassroots yes events know that.

They know that Scotland can be anything they each believe it will be. They know that Westminster bullies and blusters as one big tory clan while the lack of substance by Alex doesn't matter because this isn't about Alex.

It's about Scotland and what we hope Scotland can be. There is no union, it's a Westminster myth, they only want Scotland for our oil. If there was a union they'd be happy to give their taxes to an independent Scotland, that proves just how nasty they are.

Don't go worrying about reality, it's a tory myth. Vote YES with confidence.

Edited September 11, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

(I could go on forever with this sort of stuff, they're the sorts of standard arguments put forwards by rabid yes posters beneath newspaper columns.... it's amazing how much they imprint after nine months of reading them ).

[eFestivals]

Plus if you actually read the article and not just the headline he's selling small state libertarianism which I think is exactly the opposite of what Salmond is promising.

I'm waiting for the Scottish Sun to officially come out as a yes - tho sadly I suspect it'll only happen on referendum morning. After all, Alex won't want too much discussion about how he's Murdoch's sock puppet.