Football 2011-2012

[eFestivals]

Liverpool are clutching at straws using that.

Nope, not at all. In a criminal court the proven reliability or not of a witness is of huge relevance to whether their story might be believed.

While I can't really see right now (tho that might change once we've seen the full reasons) how it might be of relevance to Suarez's actual 'conviction' by the FA (given that Suarez appears to have admitted using a 'bad' word on one occasion, and presumably the 'conviction' is based around that admission), it might well have relevance against Evra's full claim of what he's said happened ("ten times" or whatever it was, plus finer details he might have alleged to the hearing).

[strummer77]

The FA should hurry up and publish this report. It's not fair on anyone to have the evidence hidden. Plus I wanna see if Evra did use South American or worse Sudaca. If he has I fully expect the FA to come down equally as hard. They won't though. But they should.

[eFestivals]

A bust up with a load of ground staff and then it essentially got thrown out. Its not enough to derail this racism issue or take any of the heat away from Liverpool and Evra. Which Liverpool were trying to do with that statement.

I disagree.

We know that Suarez has admitted using a particular word that can be taken as 'good' or 'bad' depending on context and use.

Suarez claims he meant nothing bad by it. Evra claims that he did.

If the judgement has been made on the basis of what Evra has alleged was meant by Suarez then Evra might have made another false claim, and Suarez could in fact be innocent and only 'convicted' on the basis of that false claim.

It's certainly not something that can be ruled out from the little we know currently.

[The Nal]

That would be Paul McGrath who said this:

"“I heard him call some black players a coon during training. It didn’t happen very often, it was occasional. But I’m not going to defend him to the hilt.

I think Ron is probably one of the old school where language like this was probably more accepted.”

“You only have to look at his record over the years,” he explained. “He was one of the few managers who helped black players in their careers and he treated everyone well.

“He was a great inspiration for me personally. He brought me to Manchester United and looked after me. He was at Villa as well. He treated me brilliantly.

“He would have been the first person to have befriended black people.”"

http://icbirmingham....-name_page.html

Ah so defending Ron Atkinson a man who had no nuances to cover him, is fine... but defending Suarez is wrong? What a hypocritical c**t of the highest order. A disgrace. He should just shut his mouth rather than start abusing Glen Johnson.

Edited December 23, 2011 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Suarez is 24 and has been living in the Europe in the 21st century for 5 years.

a Europe which has wildly different ways of addressing (or not ) the racism issue.

I've no idea how things work in Holland for racism, but unless you do down to the fine details then it's disingenuous to throw that in as tho it means something of relevance.

In this country, anything with any hint of racism within it is taboo as was demonstrated only yesterday with Hansen's apology for saying 'coloured'.

The same might not be true in Holland, and is of huge relevance as to what Suarez might have learnt about the acceptability or not of 'negro' (or whichever word he used).

[strummer77]

Not having a go mate, but this is another one thats been trotted out by Liverpool fans, the only people who are defending Suarez as if hes 100% innocent.

Atkinson managed Utd - how can they complain etc etc.

Ron Atkinson was born in 1939, and grew up in Birmingham. Hes 72 years of age.

Suarez is 24 and has been living in the Europe in the 21st century for 5 years.

Its not comparable at all and doesnt take away from what McGrath said. It wasn't just McGrath by the way. It was most of the footballing world who thought the tshirts, the statement by the club and the reaction from Liverpool in general is pretty poor.

"X player said he wasn't happy with Liverpools reaction"

"But, but, but, he failed his driving test three times. What would he know!?"

Its a little silly. Someone says something, anything criticising Liverpool or Suarez or whoever, and old quotes like this are rolled out in defence to discredit them. What about all the other players, black and white, who've criticised Liverpool over the last few days?

[The Nal]

The same might not be true in Holland, and is of huge relevance as to what Suarez might have learnt about the acceptability or not of 'negro' (or whichever word he used).

Edited December 23, 2011 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

But yeah, I'm presuming a lot. Maybe Suarez is a bit thick and I'm giving him too much credit?

that might be true - players aren't known for their intelligence. Le Saux was labelled "an intellectual" simply on the basis that he was once seen reading The Guardian.

But I'd also say that it's quite likely that today's more famous and well paid players probably live in a kind of bubble where much of their life happens remotely from the culture they live within. Most won't go to 'normal' places for a night out or whatever, and their home entertainment might well come via satellite from the country of their birth. They don't live the beer and fags 'local' existence of players of old.

[strummer77]

Thats the conclusion I come to a lot with footballers - Rooney/Gerrard wanting to leave, Tevez, Balotelli etc. They're all a bit thick. I mean, David Beckham is one of the most "intrerviewable" footballers out there!

[The Nal]

In football news - , Phil Jones is fit. Phew!

[The Nal]

Don't know if this has been posted yet but...

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/16315781.stm

[ralph250]

and Neil.

Evra's been pretty poor defensively going back last season as well as this, especially positionally, but he didn't have the awful game that seems to have been painted on here. Nor Suarez a great game imo that would frustrate the United defenders enough to play the race card. A decent enough game yes, good even but not one of his dominant performances like he has delivered this season or did against us last year in the 3-1 at Anfield.

I'm not saying that that results in Suarez having said those remarks. Possibility I guess, that Evra took a disliking to him and has tried it, or perhaps honest mistranslation, but I'm not seeing the "he's embarrassed me on the pitch, I'm going to embarass him off it" angle.

Edited December 23, 2011 by ralph250

[pink_triangle]

Don't know if this has been posted yet but...

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/16315781.stm

[ralph250]

Anyways, I had a monster week on dreamteam this week: 102 pts.

[eFestivals]

Apologies if you feel I'm trying to be antagonistic or hold double-standards towards you. It was not my intention; as said, I wanted to refrain from discussing it, but glancing over, the 4/5 "Evra-admitted racist" comments caught my eye, as did the Cantona one (as we internallly disciplined him). Just seemed an odd example. Perhaps a subconscious bias drew me to your comments, if fallable of that, apologies.

The posts I made about Evra having admitted his own racism were (all I think, but perhaps only mostly*) mostly back at similar stupidity from Utd fans, as a way of pointing out their stupidity.

(* if only mostly then those others were made to point out the fact of the same actions from both Evra and Suarez).

I can't remember what I might have posted about Cantona for you to make that comment. I know I posted something genuinely sensible yesterday about him, which I don't think you're referring to. I have a feeling I might have posted something earlier that was a piss-take response (as the Evra stuff is) to dullard comments.

It's a regular problem I cause, that leaves people thinking I'm meaning something I'm not - tho I don't think it's unfair to say that the fault is at least as much with the reader as it might be with me.

That subconcious bias you talk of would have to also include some serious blindness, given the page or more of far more ridiculous stuff from Utd fans here than anything I've read anywhere by Liverpool fans.

And that 'subconcious bias' is still glaring at me from much of what you've just posted - you're siding towards the worst possibilities for Suarez and the best for Evra. If you can't see that for yourself then I've lost a lot of respect for what you post.

[The Nal]

Always worth posting when Eric is mentioned.

[eFestivals]

Neil and the Liverpool fans are looking for a criminal court level of proof that I doubt will come..

No I'm not. I'm looking for something which stands up to scrutiny.

For example, the judgement might be made on the basis that Suarez was being abusive, and along with that (but not necessarily part that's considered abuse) he mentioned race - that's enough to fit with the charge, and I'd accept that.

However, I don't think it will be that because the punishment doesn't seem to fit. I'd have expected something lighter if that was the basis for the 'conviction'.

So far we know little about what the hearing actually heard of even if we take what's been reported as accurate. There's a huge amount that might be within the full documentation that might have me feeling they got it right.

But so far everything is pointing towards nothing more than the panel's opinion on Suarez's intent, and if that's it then I'll find it hard to accept as right while not being able to also conclude it as wrong - but to me that should probably be a 'not guilty' on the basis that it's unprovable either way.

The idea that whatever the FA release will clear it all up if very naive I would say...

I don't think it necessarily will, but it stands a chance. It will at least give us further info than the very limited stuff that exists currently.

The suggestion is he will appeal regardless anyway so it doesn't matter much anyway.

the appeal he can make to the FA is only about the punishment and not the 'conviction' itself.

[strummer77]

if you have caused offence via your language then you need to accept you was some what in the wrong. I still haven't heard a single sorry out of him which would make a big difference.

Edited December 23, 2011 by strummer77

[kaosmark2]

if you have caused offence via your language then you need to accept you was some what in the wrong. I still haven't heard a single sorry out of him which would make a big difference.

[lost]

Liverpool fans on twitter:

http://twitter.com/StanCollymore/#/favorites

[kaosmark2]

There are idiots, and they are fairly often the ones who shout the loudest. I imagine they'd be similarly disgusting fans of any club. Still disgraceful.

[kaosmark2]

I can't help but think, and this is supported by their comments, that it highlights the problem with not having a zero tolerance stance on this stuff. I think Liverpool FC are handling it terribly and it gives fuel to those utter dick heads to throw around these comments. One guy said, police can't touch me because negro and every other connotation is ok... No its not you spoon..

I am not saying Liverpool FC should of not stuck by the guy... but something far more toned down than the whole t-shirt thing would of been far more suitable... and probably a more mature press release etc... Its all so far out of hand...

[thetime]

but they should have said, in their initial response, something along the lines of "While we abhor racism in all its forms, we do not feel Luis' comments were made with any racist intent and thus he did not deserve the level of punishment handed out...."

[pink_triangle]

BBC report wenger says no to a move for Wayne bridge, what a non story. What next, arsenal decide not to pursue bramble.

[kaosmark2]

BBC report wenger says no to a move for Wayne bridge, what a non story. What next, arsenal decide not to pursue bramble.