General News Discussion

[eFestivals]

But, as Mr Efestivals says, the case is complex and the law is a blunt instrument

can you please stop being so damned clever by summing up what I'm trying to say in such excellent words?

[pink_triangle]

I think at time theres been too much focus on the age and not enough focus on the teacher aspect of the story. As a teacher he gains access to young teenage girls that most of us do not and the laws need to be in place to reflect that. While we can look into all the factors that may have contributed to the sad incident, the law is set and he knew the rules. If he wasnt to get the book thrown at him, I fear it could open the floodgates for people to enter the teaching profession, thinking it was a gamble worth taking.

My only concern is would the response (and later punishment) have been the same if it was 30 year old Jenny Forrest and 15 year old Martin Stammers.

[feral chile]

I think at time theres been too much focus on the age and not enough focus on the teacher aspect of the story. As a teacher he gains access to young teenage girls that most of us do not and the laws need to be in place to reflect that. While we can look into all the factors that may have contributed to the sad incident, the law is set and he knew the rules. If he wasnt to get the book thrown at him, I fear it could open the floodgates for people to enter the teaching profession, thinking it was a gamble worth taking.

My only concern is would the response (and later punishment) have been the same if it was 30 year old Jenny Forrest and 15 year old Martin Stammers.

[eFestivals]

My only concern is would the response (and later punishment) have been the same if it was 30 year old Jenny Forrest and 15 year old Martin Stammers.

from anecdotal memory of cases I've read about, and with everything else being equal, it's probably the case that women teachers who have relationships with male students (and in some case, female students) get a harsher punishment than a male teacher who has a relationship with a female student - but not a male teacher who has a relationship with a male student.

I'm guessing that the male teacher who has a relationship with a male student is considered to have corrupted that student into a same sex relationship which causes the harsher punishment (while of course there might be nothing of that 'corruption').

And I'm guessing that for female teachers who have a relationship with any sex of student, they get subjected to the full sexism of the law*, where women (if the case reaches court) tend to get treated FAR more harshly for the same offence than male would do - on the basis that men are standardly bad, but women are standardly good; which comes to mean that a women who is bad is much more bad than a male is who does the same thing.

(* this is a proven happening, from masses of different research).

Edited September 29, 2012 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

the definition of a paedophile is someone who is attracted to pre-pubescent children, so whether she is a child (in UK law) isnt strictly relevant

if paedophilia is genuinely a psychological disorder, rather than a tabloid newspaper label to be banded about at will, it can only apply to pre-pubescent children. If not, we would be in the obviously silly position of this bloke being a paedophile in the UK, but not in France or Spain. If the term has any meaning, one is either a paedophile or not...it cannot be a product of geography

Edited September 29, 2012 by feral chile

[abdoujaparov]

I'd disagree with this to some extent, as children reach puberty at ridiculously young ages in some cases, and just because they've physically matured, this doesn't mean they're emotionally mature enough for a sexual relationship. otherwise, you'd have the equally ridiculous scenario whereby a child starting her periods at ten is fair game. And age of consent is completely individual.

[feral chile]

well, you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the standard psychiatric definition

the age of consent should be individual, but it is set arbitrarily in law

Edited September 29, 2012 by feral chile

[abdoujaparov]

yes I know. But psychological disorders are also socially defined, and subject to bias. Which is why paedophilia is considered a psychological disorder in the first place, rather than a sexual orientation tha\t children need to be protected from (or not, because there are cultural differences in how adult/child sexual relationships are viewed).

Though I can see why they've used this distinction, obviously. Children who look like adults won't attract the same people as those attracted to children who look like children.

It's still pretty arbitrary though.

[kaosmark2]

Btw, the UK law doesn't consider sex with a 15 year old to be paedophilia, it considers it statutory rape. The actual paedophilia boundary in law is 13.

[feral chile]

Btw, the UK law doesn't consider sex with a 15 year old to be paedophilia, it considers it statutory rape. The actual paedophilia boundary in law is 13.

[Spartacus Mars]

Let's face it, it's his wife's fault.

She said to him one evening "let's have children" and he took it from there.

[abdoujaparov]

Btw, the UK law doesn't consider sex with a 15 year old to be paedophilia, it considers it statutory rape. The actual paedophilia boundary in law is 13.

Edited September 29, 2012 by abdoujaparov

[kaosmark2]

Sorry, but that's a bit confused.

Sex with a under 16 year old girl (using the current case as an example) is Unlawful Sexual Intercourse, if the girl consented (if she didn't, it's rape)

Sex with a girl aged under 13 is cosnsidered to be rape no matter whether the girl consents or not as she is considered, in law, to be too young to consent. This, and only this, is what might be referred to as statutory rape

There is no legal definition of paedophilia

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I dont think the law is as blunt an instrument as we think. There is great deal of guidance out there to the courts and CPS that allows for individual considerations to be taken into account. But I do think that the specific offence of an abuse of a position of trust is necessary. As I understand it France has a similar law, but I am happy to be corrected. At the end of the day this young lady is going to go through a possibly traumatic experience, an experience that one would assume a loved one would try to protect you from, never mind your teacher.

[feral chile]

I dont think the law is as blunt an instrument as we think. There is great deal of guidance out there to the courts and CPS that allows for individual considerations to be taken into account. But I do think that the specific offence of an abuse of a position of trust is necessary. As I understand it France has a similar law, but I am happy to be corrected. At the end of the day this young lady is going to go through a possibly traumatic experience, an experience that one would assume a loved one would try to protect you from, never mind your teacher.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

The hardest thing I ever studied was child sex abuse, because it challenged so many of my socialised values. Like, certain cultures have adults who initiate youngsters into sex as part of their introduction to adulthood, so it's considered guidance instead of abuse. And (way back in the dark ages when I studied it) children were removed from the abusive situation, rather than the abuser being removed from the child, if it was a family member. So the child felt like they were being punished. And often it was the moral outrage that caused the emotional trauma, not the abuse itself, because before discovery, the child accepted the sexual activity as normal.

Part of our training was to break down as many of our internalised cultural values as possible - because, of course, some of us would go on to treat sex offenders etc. that one was definitely the most disturbing and distressing.

[Spartacus Mars]

Like certain cultures have adults who initiate youngsters into sex as part of their introduction to adulthood, so it's considered guidance instead of abuse.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I know a little about Pacific Islander culture where similar things are claimed. What you're suggesting is actually men explaining away why they're raping the bejesus out of thirteen year old girls. THEY don't consider it abuse, the girls they damage do. But if they complain they get what they've always gotten - their faces beaten in.

Again, not "abuse", just "part of our culture".

[feral chile]

~-+

I know a little about Pacific Islander culture where similar things are claimed. What you're suggesting is actually men explaining away why they're raping the bejesus out of thirteen year old girls. THEY don't consider it abuse, the girls they damage do. But if they complain they get what they've always gotten - their faces beaten in.

Again, not "abuse", just "part of our culture".

[kaosmark2]

Anyone remember this story from a few months ago?

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-mother-rapes-daughter-to-teach-her-about-sex,0,6186029.story

Not just weird isolated Pacific island cultures, it happens in...

Oh. Australia. Nevermind, carry on then.

[Spartacus Mars]

Not just weird isolated Pacific island cultures...

[feral chile]

The difference is the Australian culture considered what that woman did to be a crime, be it the regulators or neighbours. Most Australians would consider that woman's argument to be abhorrent.

The difference is cultures that encourage child sex, practise FGM, tribes that rule a girl can be gang-raped by the entire village for having talked to boys, or be whipped to death for having been raped, etc., hold these as normal societal and legal values.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I don't think the research I was referring to was anything to do with punishment/gang rape, it was meant to be an initiation into adulthood with trusted adults and was meant to be consensual, though by our Western standards it's difficult to accept the children had any say in it.

I'm scared to do a google search, bearing in mind what's likely to pop up!

[lost]

Documentary about Jimmy Savile and underage girls showing on Wednesday:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19776872

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Documentary about Jimmy Savile and underage girls showing on Wednesday:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19776872