Formula 1

[Crazyfool01]

Amazing performance from max … shows why he’s the best driver in the best car currently…. I imagine some might be crying currently 

[Ozanne]

F1 is a shambles right now from the sounds of it this race was handled appalling. I feel for anyone who wasted their time getting up early for this rubbish. 

[Crazyfool01]

And world champion thoroughly deserved 

[Ozanne]

Hopefully the FIA do the right thing when the cost cap breach is announced and strip Max of his World Titles. I seriously doubt that they will as they don’t seem to want to hold Max and RBR to the same rules as everyone else. 

[squirrelarmy]

Lol complete farce again. 
 

I’ve not watched the race but I’m seeing a million posts about rules being changed on the spot in order to crown Verstappen the championship. 

[Ozanne]

2 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Lol complete farce again. 
 

I’ve not watched the race but I’m seeing a million posts about rules being changed on the spot in order to crown Verstappen the championship. 

Just seen this 😂

What more does MV need? He’s been handed yet another World Title.

[Crazyfool01]

Sky and Crofty stuffed up … get over it kids or switch off 

[Ozanne]

How many times will the FIA make up rules on the fly to ensure their golden boy gets to be Champion?

[charlierc]

3 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Also we had a recovery vehicle on the track before the red flag which couldn't be any more dangerous.

That might well be the bigger argument from this. Many of the drivers are pretty angry, with all criticising it when given the opportunity either with Twitter during the race stoppage or in the interviews now being conducted. The optics are spectacularly bad - the last time we saw a race where Suzuka had recovery tractors on the track in very wet barely-visible conditions was in 2014, leading to tragedy. It's spectacularly fucked up that this was let to happen.

Some of the initial arguments were also puzzling, as whether Gasly was going by at a fast pace or not, as some were very keen to jump on as a point of argument, that's still putting too many people in danger for a situation that was going to be red flagged anyway.

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, Crazyfool01 said:

And world champion thoroughly deserved 

Well he was going to be champion anyway - I think if half points were given, he'd still have been a single digit figure short. And agreed - Verstappen has just been a deserving champion, and to be nearly 30 seconds clear of everyone else in a half-distance race is pretty remarkable. As it was when Hamilton did it in Turkey 2020 on a borderline undrivable track (if full distance), in fairness.

But my Lord... says a lot that no teams were actually expecting it only for FIA/F1 to crown it themselves.

It was valid to re-do the rules after the mess that was Spa last year when a race was basically not runnable but still had the debacle of half points behind the safety car, but the wording here means that in theory they could've just run another 2/3 laps then given full points, as some have pointed out. I don't necessarily object to full points using their logic, but spelling it out at the start rather than needing a fuck around and find out routine might have been better. Or at least they might wanna amend that wording.

Basically, today has been quite a lot of strangeness for an event that was over by 9:30 UK time. Shame in a way as the actual race was quite decent, but it's going to have to be talked about both for the atrocious way the recovery vehicles were handled after Sainz's crash (and the fact they were lucky the loose billboard didn't cause more damage), and tying themselves in knots with the points.

[Ozanne]

13 minutes ago, charlierc said:

Well he was going to be champion anyway - I think if half points were given, he'd still have been a single digit figure short. And agreed - Verstappen has just been a deserving champion, and to be nearly 30 seconds clear of everyone else in a half-distance race is pretty remarkable. As it was when Hamilton did it in Turkey 2020 on a borderline undrivable track (if full distance), in fairness.

But my Lord... says a lot that no teams were actually expecting it only for FIA/F1 to crown it themselves.

It was valid to re-do the rules after the mess that was Spa last year when a race was basically not runnable but still had the debacle of half points behind the safety car, but the wording here means that in theory they could've just run another 2/3 laps then given full points, as some have pointed out. I don't necessarily object to full points using their logic, but spelling it out at the start rather than needing a fuck around and find out routine might have been better. Or at least they might wanna amend that wording.

Basically, today has been quite a lot of strangeness for an event that was over by 9:30 UK time. Shame in a way as the actual race was quite decent, but it's going to have to be talked about both for the atrocious way the recovery vehicles were handled after Sainz's crash (and the fact they were lucky the loose billboard didn't cause more damage), and tying themselves in knots with the points.

Don’t you see what’s happening? I think F1 fans and commentators need to open their eyes to see what’s going on. I don’t mean to be rude, sorry if it comes across this way. 
 

Last week when Perez was under investigation it took hours to get an outcome yet this week the race is finished and within minutes a handy penalty is dished out to Leclerc which hands MV the title. There are too many events which on their own don’t look too bad but all of them put together at the very least give off the perception of favouritism.

Tomorrow will be the big day for the FIA but it seems pretty clear they won’t do anything to RBR.

[squirrelarmy]

You all know my feelings about it so will be brief. Today’s events just show how much the entertainment matters rather than the sport. 

I didn’t watch it but I’ve seen the social media pics of Max on the “throne”. It’s pure theatre now to keep the new fans happy. I won’t be surprised if next season drivers are going to their cars with their own entrance music. 
 

Also as @Barry Fish said, to have a recovery vehicle on track in low grip and visibility conditions while cars are moving at speed is absolutely shocking especially with it being Suzuka as well. 
 

Absolutely shocking decisions being made. I’m not expecting anything to come from the cost cap breach either. 
 

As I’ve said before, F1 ceased to exist as a sport when Liberty media took control. 

[Ozanne]

The FIA only seem to care about entertainment when it suits them and their agenda. 

[DareToDibble]

Absolutely shocking to have a recovery vehicle on track, what the FIA/stewards were thinking there is beyond me. Utterly diabolical decision making. I haven’t been able to see any social media yet but did I see Gasly just outright stopped when he saw it or something similar? Good on him if so.

I woke up as the race was restarting so missed everything else but some great racing, seeing Seb and Fernando crossing the line at the same time was great. That Alpine must have some serious straight line speed when a wet weather specialist like Lewis couldn’t get by Ocon. Was sure he would do it too.

 

I’m saying it after every race at the moment but anyone in this thread claiming that anything is fixed towards Max is so wide or the mark it’s ridiculous. We have definitely seen some ineptitude from FIA/stewards but that’s not biased towards Max, it’s just that they’re currently pretty shit when it comes to making calls. There is no way things would be different if the roles were reversed. 

[charlierc]

4 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Don’t you see what’s happening? I think F1 fans and commentators need to open their eyes to see what’s going on. I don’t mean to be rude, sorry if it comes across this way. 
 

Last week when Perez was under investigation it took hours to get an outcome yet this week the race is finished and within minutes a handy penalty is dished out to Leclerc which hands MV the title. There are too many events which on their own don’t look too bad but all of them put together at the very least give off the perception of favouritism.

Tomorrow will be the big day for the FIA but it seems pretty clear they won’t do anything to RBR.

The FIA get tagged by this all the time - for most of the 2000s they were frequently nicknamed "Ferrari International Assistance", as well as then seen by some as going too far the other way when Ferrari ended up being nowhere near winning races in 2005 (the 6 car race in the US aside), while back in 2018/19, they were being called biased towards Mercedes for a number of marginal calls that went their way. Just that now it's openly more chaotic.

Leclerc's penalty was correct - cut the chicane to stay ahead of Perez, both Leclerc & team said it was fine, and Verstappen has twice been penalised for similar incidents in the final lap of a race with speedy efficiency by the stewards - but it's odd they felt the need for extra time for Perez when it was the kind of thing you could just give the penalty for there/then, and with a bizarre contradictory statement in justification. But it reeks more of ineptitude rather than conspiracy.

I was more positing with that post that at the very least, the FIA or F1 should've said "Full points will be given out because of XYZ" rather than being kinda mysterious in posting up full points graphics and leaving it for commentators to go "... oh right well that's what it would be but we won't be giving those out", which I noted Sky's team did twice. If the rules as they are meant full points, fine, but doing so in a way where all of the drivers, teams, commentators and other media all had no idea was just ridiculous.

[charlierc]

38 minutes ago, DareToDibble said:

Absolutely shocking to have a recovery vehicle on track, what the FIA/stewards were thinking there is beyond me. Utterly diabolical decision making. I haven’t been able to see any social media yet but did I see Gasly just outright stopped when he saw it or something similar? Good on him if so.

I woke up as the race was restarting so missed everything else but some great racing, seeing Seb and Fernando crossing the line at the same time was great. That Alpine must have some serious straight line speed when a wet weather specialist like Lewis couldn’t get by Ocon. Was sure he would do it too.

 

I’m saying it after every race at the moment but anyone in this thread claiming that anything is fixed towards Max is so wide or the mark it’s ridiculous. We have definitely seen some ineptitude from FIA/stewards but that’s not biased towards Max, it’s just that they’re currently pretty shit when it comes to making calls. There is no way things would be different if the roles were reversed. 

Gasly was given a penalty for speeding under red flag conditions and has accepted he approached the scene where the tractor and marshalls were recovering Sainz's car too quickly. Imo this raises a question on whether Alpha Tauri did enough to tell Gasly that this infrastructure was on the track, but equally, while I can accept Gasly did something wrong in going by fast, this really doesn't excuse the fact it was already on track when the safety car queue passed. Drivers can still lose it behind the safety car and given Imola and Turkey in 2020 both had massive safety breaches, to say nothing of what happened at Suzuka 2014, the FIA aren't off the hook here.

As I say above, yeah. Maybe there's a few moments where Abu Dhabi 2021 and the massive bungling of the rules that evening is still acting as a bit of a hangover to justify the idea of a large pro-Verstappen conspiracy. Though it is an interesting point of order as talk is building that F1 and the FIA haven't been getting on in the last year or so and many of the issues we've been seeing in 2022 seem to be being caused by FIA problems.

[Ozanne]

19 minutes ago, charlierc said:

The FIA get tagged by this all the time - for most of the 2000s they were frequently nicknamed "Ferrari International Assistance", as well as then seen by some as going too far the other way when Ferrari ended up being nowhere near winning races in 2005 (the 6 car race in the US aside), while back in 2018/19, they were being called biased towards Mercedes for a number of marginal calls that went their way. Just that now it's openly more chaotic.

Leclerc's penalty was correct - cut the chicane to stay ahead of Perez, both Leclerc & team said it was fine, and Verstappen has twice been penalised for similar incidents in the final lap of a race with speedy efficiency by the stewards - but it's odd they felt the need for extra time for Perez when it was the kind of thing you could just give the penalty for there/then, and with a bizarre contradictory statement in justification. But it reeks more of ineptitude rather than conspiracy.

I was more positing with that post that at the very least, the FIA or F1 should've said "Full points will be given out because of XYZ" rather than being kinda mysterious in posting up full points graphics and leaving it for commentators to go "... oh right well that's what it would be but we won't be giving those out", which I noted Sky's team did twice. If the rules as they are meant full points, fine, but doing so in a way where all of the drivers, teams, commentators and other media all had no idea was just ridiculous.

That’s kinda my point though, on its own the problems today might not seem as bad but when you add all of them together it certainly looks like they favour RBR at the very least. There’s just too many convenient things happening for it to be incompetence such as today with the timing of the announcements, yesterday with the Nando issue and last weekend with MV overtaking under a SC (to name a few). The cost cap will be a revealing factor in all of this as they can stick to their rule if RBR have breached the rules or not.

 

It’s now got so bad that the fan base will just automatically think of a bias instead of error. That’s a big issue for the FIA if they want to be taken seriously as a governing body.

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, charlierc said:

Gasly was given a penalty for speeding under red flag conditions and has accepted he approached the scene where the tractor and marshalls were recovering Sainz's car too quickly. Imo this raises a question on whether Alpha Tauri did enough to tell Gasly that this infrastructure was on the track, but equally, while I can accept Gasly did something wrong in going by fast, this really doesn't excuse the fact it was already on track when the safety car queue passed. Drivers can still lose it behind the safety car and given Imola and Turkey in 2020 both had massive safety breaches, to say nothing of what happened at Suzuka 2014, the FIA aren't off the hook here.

 

Ah. Fucked this up. FIA and Gasly himself confirmed the penalty was not for speeding through the bit where the tractor was, but for going quickly further down the track after the red flag was out and where he was distracted by being angry about the tractor, and that at the point where this was waiting, the car was still going slower than it normally would through that section. My mistake.

For it's own thing, fine, but it's hard to defend the FIA for the management of this when it was already out by the time the safety car queue initially passed, let alone this mess.

Edited October 9, 2022 by charlierc

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

That’s kinda my point though, on its own the problems today might not seem as bad but when you add all of them together it certainly looks like they favour RBR at the very least. There’s just too many convenient things happening for it to be incompetence such as today with the timing of the announcements, yesterday with the Nando issue and last weekend with MV overtaking under a SC (to name a few). The cost cap will be a revealing factor in all of this as they can stick to their rule if RBR have breached the rules or not.

 

It’s now got so bad that the fan base will just automatically think of a bias instead of error. That’s a big issue for the FIA if they want to be taken seriously as a governing body.

But this almost makes it sound like a thing to satiate this unease would be Red Bull drivers getting a multitude of in-race penalties for something other drivers would not be punished for, which isn't exactly a great solution.

For those examples, the qualy incident was consistent with other similar incidents that have happened in the last few years, even if imo it looks like it should be a penalty and I did think this with other similar incidents, while the Singapore VSC thing was very odd but seemed to be dismissed at the time. Certainly, if Verstappen had got ahead of Norris and drove away, it would've been investigated, but he didn't.

Many of these just tie into the greater story of the FIA's erratic decision making though. It's felt to me that since the loss of Charlie Whiting on the eve of the 2019 season, and especially following multiple unsafe decisions in 2020, that something is amiss.

[Ozanne]

11 minutes ago, charlierc said:

But this almost makes it sound like a thing to satiate this unease would be Red Bull drivers getting a multitude of in-race penalties for something other drivers would not be punished for, which isn't exactly a great solution.

For those examples, the qualy incident was consistent with other similar incidents that have happened in the last few years, even if imo it looks like it should be a penalty and I did think this with other similar incidents, while the Singapore VSC thing was very odd but seemed to be dismissed at the time. Certainly, if Verstappen had got ahead of Norris and drove away, it would've been investigated, but he didn't.

Many of these just tie into the greater story of the FIA's erratic decision making though. It's felt to me that since the loss of Charlie Whiting on the eve of the 2019 season, and especially following multiple unsafe decisions in 2020, that something is amiss.

I agree that the loss of Charlie Whiting has had a big blow on the sport. He seemed a fair and decent steward who also commanded a lot of respect. He is missed quite dearly in the sport.

I don’t know what would satiate the growing unease amongst the fan base, it would probably be something like RBR incurring a penalty that’s at the harsher end of the spectrum for a breach of the rules. But it’s very telling that not a single fan of any driver thinks the FIA will be strict with RBR over a breach in the cost cap. This is the bed the FIA have made for themselves.

It looks like full points being awarded for this race was in the rules so I was wrong when I said they made this rule up but I still hold reservations about everything else.

[DareToDibble]

Yeah I hope that some of the other teams close the gap. We should have seen it coming really after a big regulation change as Adrian Newey is just an aero aster. I would love to see McLaren back near the top but I'm not convinced they'll be there again for a number of years.

Even at the start of the season when Ferrari were up there, arguably a bit quicker, the drivers made mistakes. Then as the season has gone on the team have just made some bizarre strategy decisions.

I suspect Mercedes will be a lot stronger next year. 

It's a shame as the start of this season looked like we would get Max v Charles all season long but Max/RBR have just run away with it.

[squirrelarmy]

30 minutes ago, DareToDibble said:

Max/RBR have just run away with it.

It’s almost as if their team exceeded the limits when it came to development budget costs. 

[DareToDibble]

21 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

It wouldn't be so bad if Perez was allowed or even capable or even capable of taking the fight to Max.

At least some of the battles in the middle / back of the grid have been good.

The problem is when you have a driver like Max, there is nobody as a number 2 who will be able to touch him. It’s the same as Lewis has been at Mercedes. Hotta’s was a great driver, but nowhere near Lewis’ level. I’d argue Lewis was miles better than Rosberg, despite him winning the title against Lewis once.

[Ozanne]

To lighten the mood a bit before the cost cap report, what is the best looking current F1 car?

For me it’s probably the Ferrari, that red is gorgeous. The Mercedes is a close 2nd though.

[DareToDibble]

Ferrari is definitely up there. I really like the McLaren too. Must remember to say it's papaya and not orange 😄