Formula 1

[Ghost of Robbie Williams]

6 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The coverage comes alive when MV is race leader, he's practically the only car we see and the GLEE in the commentators voice when he took the lead is a joke. Last few years they moaned all the time when Merc won races but now it's MV & RBR it's all perfectly fine.

Ah well at least Hamilton got 2nd place I suppose.

Massively strange take, we usually rarely see Max because he's so far ahead. I'm not a fan of his but can see that his haters do seem to lose sense of reason a lot.

[Crazyfool01]

12 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The coverage comes alive when MV is race leader, he's practically the only car we see and the GLEE in the commentators voice when he took the lead is a joke. Last few years they moaned all the time when Merc won races but now it's MV & RBR it's all perfectly fine.

Ah well at least Hamilton got 2nd place I suppose.

You know how commentary for any sport works ? When there are close battles or excitement the tone of most commentators voices changes … you really come over terribly in this thread and act like a spoilt kid in your love for Lewis … you know what I actually want Lewis to win . You know the answer ? Switch off the TV and stop ruining this thread 

[DareToDibble]

27 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The coverage comes alive when MV is race leader, he's practically the only car we see and the GLEE in the commentators voice when he took the lead is a joke. Last few years they moaned all the time when Merc won races but now it's MV & RBR it's all perfectly fine.

Ah well at least Hamilton got 2nd place I suppose.

C’mon mate this is ridiculous. When Lewis was winning race after race they were loving it too. They are fans of the sport so get excited by good racing and overtakes. To say they moaned when Merc/Lewis were always winning is completely incorrect too. 

[Ozanne]

10 minutes ago, DareToDibble said:

C’mon mate this is ridiculous. When Lewis was winning race after race they were loving it too. They are fans of the sport so get excited by good racing and overtakes. To say they moaned when Merc/Lewis were always winning is completely incorrect too. 

In races where Merc dominated Martin Brundle regularly used to say 'thank God for Max Verstappen' whenever Max did the slightly things down the order. I literally remember Brundle saying that, he doesn't seem to mind now it's Max winning 13 odd races a season. They practically begged for a close 2021 style season last year but yet this one which is the complete opposite seems to be fine.

Obviously I'm gutted because there was a taste of Hamilton victory which is shrouding my thoughts/bias but that's the perception I have of the coverage. MV had just got passed LH and the next corner Croft was saying how MAX has won the race, like there is nothing else that can possibly be done. 

Whilst it was a good result or LH, he can't really do much more against a team that break the cost cap. The races since the summer break show that if he gets a car even slightly competitive he will win an 8th title.

[charlierc]

This was a great race tbf. It was aided a little by Verstappen's second pit stop being compromised, but that was enough to really spice things up and hats off for a good recovery drive. Yes he's in a faster car than the current Merc and Ferrari but that's not a guarantee of winning and the battles to get past both Leclerc and Hamilton were good fun. On another day, Hamilton is winning it but it just chewed through the tyres too much. Still, that's a sign their upgrades are bringing them a step closer, which could be a good sign if they nail their 2023 design.

Also it's amazing Alonso got that car not only to the end but in a decent points finish. That looked like a certain DNF after his crash with Stroll, and it's also lucky that Stroll didn't take another out with him.

[phimill]

@Ozanne how did the F1 rig this one then? They must have done something to make VER get HAM down the back straight

[DareToDibble]

Just read Alonso got a post-race 30 second penalty for his loose mirror which drops him out of the points. Didn’t even think about it at the time but Haas appealed it as they’ve been made to stop in previous races and Alonso wasn’t. 

I get their complaint, we need consistency.

30 seconds post-race is the equivalent of a 10 second stop/go penalty in-race apparently

[charlierc]

19 hours ago, charlierc said:

Also it's amazing Alonso got that car not only to the end but in a decent points finish. That looked like a certain DNF after his crash with Stroll, and it's also lucky that Stroll didn't take another out with him.

 

4 hours ago, DareToDibble said:

Just read Alonso got a post-race 30 second penalty for his loose mirror which drops him out of the points. Didn’t even think about it at the time but Haas appealed it as they’ve been made to stop in previous races and Alonso wasn’t. 

I get their complaint, we need consistency.

30 seconds post-race is the equivalent of a 10 second stop/go penalty in-race apparently

... yeah I wrote praising Alonso before the FIA went "No". Which is a real shame given the chaotic narrative of his afternoon.

Though it's another example of the FIA tying itself in knots given it said that they should've sent a memo to Alpine to repair Alonso's car but didn't so applied a penalty to Alpine to cover for themselves not doing something they said they should while also rejecting a similar complaint Haas made regarding the Red Bull of Perez (they could also have done it for Russell imo as his front wing looked beaten up from his lap one crash). Plus Haas are right to be pissed that Magnussen has been told to stop on 3 separate occasions to fix car damage.

Same goes for the 10 car lengths behind the safety car thing, given prior incidents in Montreal and Singapore got a pass from the stewards but Gasly here did not. Though the fact Alpha Tauri then poured salt on the wound by not administering the penalty correctly and giving Gasly an additional post-race penalty was a sign their season is going down in smoke.

[charlierc]

4 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

A much faster illegal car ?  Hamilton did well considering.

The fia aren't rigging stuff but Verstappen is being flattered with a much faster car for sure.  Hamilton had no real defence to deploy.

Mercedes' POV is that the moment Max cleared Leclerc, it was game over for their win hopes given that gave Max 17 laps to try to chase and pass Hamilton, which he duly did. It took longer than I thought it would and Hamilton did stick within a second a lap for a while, but ultimately both Ferrari and Mercedes have cars harsher on their tyres than RB do right now.

Will say they were much more competitive here than expected tbf - after a good performance at the Dutch round, I thought their best chance for a win this year would be on a tight and twisty thing like Singapore or Suzuka, but they were nowhere at both those two.

Really any hope for an alternative winner before 2022 is over needs a Max DNF. Not impossible, but the car does seem to have shaken off its reliability gremlins. At the very least the dysfunctional second RB pit stop gave them a decent shot at it.

[Ozanne]

In retrospect I was a bit OTT last night after the race with those comments. It was a good result for Hamilton all things being considered with how things have gone this season. I'm not sure if he'll get a win this season, maybe Brazil but that's just because of what that place means to him I think. 

[charlierc]

22 hours ago, Ozanne said:

In retrospect I was a bit OTT last night after the race with those comments. It was a good result for Hamilton all things being considered with how things have gone this season. I'm not sure if he'll get a win this season, maybe Brazil but that's just because of what that place means to him I think. 

He himself thinks that just gone was his best chance. Can see that - the Mercedes is not the fastest in a straight line, as seen with Max coming from nearly a second behind to overtake Lewis, and chances are he would've struggled to keep Carlos Sainz behind had Russell not taken the Ferrari out at turn one of lap one. Mexico doesn't feel like a good chance for Merc as that's dominated by an enormous straight, while Abu Dhabi has two long straights. Brazil might be the best even though that's a sprint weekend so could have a bit of chaos to it.

[charlierc]

Given how much of a mess the FIA is making of other things - indeed today we got the Alonso penalty for driving an unsafe car at COTA on a Haas protest then rejecting Alpine's counter protest only to accept Alpine's counter-counter-protest and reinstate FA14 - I thought it would be more a lenient penalty than this. Equally, this has the air to me of being a penalty those in Red Bull view as really harsh and those outside Red Bull view as too lenient. Sure enough, Horner has already piped up calling it "draconian" while McLaren's Zak Brown says that future punishments need to be harsher.

Strangely, the FIA even said £1.4M of their £1.8M overspend came down to incorrect application of a tax credit, which is an odd way to land yourself in trouble, but there's still an extra £400,000 from various other expenses - not enough to develop a car that much, but I don't think enough to be unpunishable. I agree fining someone for overspending is counterintuitive, as is excluding the fine from the cap allowance, though a $7M fine is still quite a bit to pay off as that's equivalent to the entire 5% minor breach tolerance in play last year.

10% less wind tunnel and aero research time is actually quite something when one considers that F1 has a sliding scale of what's allowed, meaning that 1st place this year (RBR) were already going to have 30% less wind tunnel time allowed than the team finishing 7th in this year's Constructors, but the added penalty brings it down further towards 60%. Imo, could still be harsher, but naturally it is likely to hurt more if the 2023 Ferrari and Mercedes make a bigger leap forward.

[DareToDibble]

1 hour ago, charlierc said:

Equally, this has the air to me of being a penalty those in Red Bull view as really harsh and those outside Red Bull view as too lenient. Sure enough, Horner has already piped up calling it "draconian" while McLaren's Zak Brown says that future punishments need to be harsher.

 

I think this is bang on. It's probably the best the best decision they could have made as (considering RB have reduced time anyway) this will hurt them. Teams competing against them will always have wanted more of a punishment but realistically points deductions etc was never going to happen but even they'll recognise this is a serious handicap for next year.

 

Really hope Mercedes, Ferrari and (C'MON MCLAREN) make massive steps forward so coupled with RB reduced wind tunnel time gives us an amazing season next year.

[Ozanne]

The penalty in my mind is completely worthless, a fine that for RB is chump change and a 7% reduction in wind tunnel time will do barely anything when they are so far ahead anyway.

I called this from the beginning that the FIA would do barely anything and they have done. Remember when Hamiltons rear wing was out by 0.2mm and he got DQ’d from an entire session? Well it would be nice if the FIA showed the same consistency of their penalties to all teams. 

[charlierc]

14 hours ago, DareToDibble said:

I think this is bang on. It's probably the best the best decision they could have made as (considering RB have reduced time anyway) this will hurt them. Teams competing against them will always have wanted more of a punishment but realistically points deductions etc was never going to happen but even they'll recognise this is a serious handicap for next year.

 

Really hope Mercedes, Ferrari and (C'MON MCLAREN) make massive steps forward so coupled with RB reduced wind tunnel time gives us an amazing season next year.

It was going to have a mixed reaction either way imo. Indeed that's been seen in the reaction from other teams that have so far commented - reps of Mercedes and Alpine seem happy enough, with Toto even saying he feels it's a suitable deterrent against breaking the cap on purpose, while McLaren and Ferrari by contrast have been very strong in saying it doesn't go far enough. Though the fact Red Bull themselves are calling it "draconian", saying they accepted it "begrudgingly" and all the other stuff Horner was on about indicates it must be giving them grief on some level. Certainly, if it is a nothing penalty, they're not exactly acting like it.

I think that as a first go, it's enough to keep the cap's credibility just about intact. Whether that can stand is another matter - I think the way it's administered will need some refining going forward.

It does read tbf from the summaries of both ABAs published yesterday as though Red Bull and Aston Martin were doing the same thing - both were called up on around 12 points of spending, nearly all of it on administrative spending rather than throwing tons of money on the cars themselves, and both look to have been caught out by an FIA re-classification earlier this year on whether unused spare parts counted towards the cap. I mean, neither exactly read like a team was trying to hide spending a cheeky extra £10million on the race car.

Difference is AM clearly had enough of a margin to still be under cap, hence a $450K fine to a $7M fine. Red Bull admitting they didn't take the FIA offer to use 2020 as a trial run like other teams did is certainly something they will have to question amongst themselves as this is quite the way to figure out how not to do it.

Certainly, they imo seem to have handled this slightly better than a lot of their day to day racing admin. Take the case of Alonso's penalty for Austin last week being rescinded. Between the race director telling Haas they had more time to submit their protest than they did, then stewards telling Alpine they ran out of time to file a counter-protest only to accept their counter-counter protest, they just looked ridiculous.

[charlierc]

Indeed. They were suggesting their front wing upgrade, even after it had to be revised due to one or two things that overstepped the rules, was still giving a boost and clearly, it has. Either that or the altitude requirements for running in Mexico have helped, similar to how in 2017-19, Red Bull would be a lot more competitive in Mexico than at similar circuits without being that high up.

Also, if you like your omens, Hamilton is starting 3rd, where he won this race from in 2019 and where Verstappen won from last year.

[Ozanne]

1 hour ago, charlierc said:

Indeed. They were suggesting their front wing upgrade, even after it had to be revised due to one or two things that overstepped the rules, was still giving a boost and clearly, it has. Either that or the altitude requirements for running in Mexico have helped, similar to how in 2017-19, Red Bull would be a lot more competitive in Mexico than at similar circuits without being that high up.

Also, if you like your omens, Hamilton is starting 3rd, where he won this race from in 2019 and where Verstappen won from last year.

Cue both Mercs taking each other out in the first corner 😉

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Cue both Mercs taking each other out in the first corner 😉

#powerofpositivethinking

Though I will say that Russell is getting an unfortunate reputation for crashing into others, not helped by the incident with Sainz at turn 1 on lap 1 last time out.

[Ozanne]

31 minutes ago, charlierc said:

#powerofpositivethinking

Though I will say that Russell is getting an unfortunate reputation for crashing into others, not helped by the incident with Sainz at turn 1 on lap 1 last time out.

I didn’t know he had that reputation, it might make him seem a bit more interesting tbh 😂

[charlierc]

If nothing else Ricciardo gave something of note with taking out Tsuonda (a Safety Car would've come out if Tsunoda stopped there so shame he didn't abandon ship sooner) and then going on an almighty charge to make his 10 second penalty redundant. That and Alonso getting more engine pain, yet another Gasly penalty and perhaps the big ouch that was Albon lapping Williams team-mate Latifi. But if we're talking that, the front was a snooze.

Certainly, there was more of a battle between Red Bull and Sky Sports than there was for the win, that's a sign that this race hasn't been a banger. It needed the medium tyre to be a bit higher wearing really - someone on the F1 Reddit found Verstappen was consistently able to do 1.22 lap times for more or less the entire stint after switching to mediums, which is pretty crazy. I was hoping for a Checo win if it had to be another RB win but not to be. There's something wrong with the track as it just encourages the field to spread out super quickly.

Mercedes might have given them something more to think about had they told one of Hamilton or Russell to go for long medium then softs, but I guess they fell into the trap of thinking hard tyres were better than they were.

Don't think it helped either that Ferrari were just nowhere.

[charlierc]

15 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

I don't think its fair really.  He is still young and learning the trade.  Mistakes are par for the course.  Both Lewis and Max had / have similar reputations in many peoples eyes.  

Racing involves contact.  Pastor Maldonado is the real benchmark for a reputation for crashing 😛 

There was a surprising backlash after the incident with Sainz on lap one of Austin last week citing incidents like Imola last year with Bottas or blaming him for the big crash with Zhou at Silverstone (imo I think that was just a standard first lap incident that just had surprisingly dramatic consequences) or two incidents with Bottas and Schuamcher at Singapore. But yeah, it is what it is - some drivers just have unfortunate moments where they get involved in multiple accidents in quick succession, and like you say, Hamilton and Verstappen both had phases like that in their early careers.

But then has anyone really come close to matching Maldonado since his F1 exit in 2015 for consistent crashing? Certainly I can't think of a driver who's inspired a repeat of the infamous "Has Maldonado Crashed Yet?" website that was a popular F1 meme towards the end of his time there.

Edited October 31, 2022 by charlierc

[Ozanne]

1 hour ago, charlierc said:

If nothing else Ricciardo gave something of note with taking out Tsuonda (a Safety Car would've come out if Tsunoda stopped there so shame he didn't abandon ship sooner) and then going on an almighty charge to make his 10 second penalty redundant. That and Alonso getting more engine pain, yet another Gasly penalty and perhaps the big ouch that was Albon lapping Williams team-mate Latifi. But if we're talking that, the front was a snooze.

Certainly, there was more of a battle between Red Bull and Sky Sports than there was for the win, that's a sign that this race hasn't been a banger. It needed the medium tyre to be a bit higher wearing really - someone on the F1 Reddit found Verstappen was consistently able to do 1.22 lap times for more or less the entire stint after switching to mediums, which is pretty crazy. I was hoping for a Checo win if it had to be another RB win but not to be. There's something wrong with the track as it just encourages the field to spread out super quickly.

Mercedes might have given them something more to think about had they told one of Hamilton or Russell to go for long medium then softs, but I guess they fell into the trap of thinking hard tyres were better than they were.

Don't think it helped either that Ferrari were just nowhere.

The race was so dull, pretty much nothing of any note happened. You get this in sport so it’s nothing new but still wasn’t exactly interesting to watch. It’s encouraging to see the improvements being made by Merc and how they’ve caught up with Ferrari; hopefully this translates into a winning car for 2023.

I found the RBR and MV spat with Sky funny. MV seemingly spitting his dummy out over ‘disrespect’ to his World Titles is hilarious. That’s what happened when you can’t win a title legitimately. 

[charlierc]

6 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Dull it was but it was interesting...

Seeing how the strategy played out between the Bull and Merc was interesting.  And seeing how much of a step forward (or not) Merc had made was interesting.

F1 isn't like other sports.  Its like an ongoing soap opera with every episode laying the foundations for the next instalment.  If you just want raw racing then try touring cars and other versions of the sport.  There is more to F1.

Sure - not every race in F1 is going to be a balls-to-the-wall last lap overtake extravaganza. But I guess the danger some in F1's advertisers creates for itself when it hypes it up like it'll be that kinda thing all the time is that when we get a dull race, it is treated like a crisis. I don't think it was bad as the 2019 French Grand Prix, which is hands down the worst Grand Prix I've ever watched, but it's not great to be in the ballpark of going "Least it wasn't that bad".

Certainly there was an intriguing strategy battle and the case of whether Red Bull's choice to go for an on-paper more aggressive soft/medium strategy would work. Had the medium tyre been a little more flimsy, it might have thrown things into a bit more doubt but it duly turned out their strategy team had got it bang on and Mercedes were left looking like they'd played it too safe. Plus as said, Ricciardo just storming through on the softs at the end was great to watch - like a throwback to before his string of ill-advised career decisions.

[DareToDibble]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:32 PM, charlierc said:

Plus as said, Ricciardo just storming through on the softs at the end was great to watch - like a throwback to before his string of ill-advised career decisions.

I was thinking about this the other day… he’ll never admit it but I wonder if he regrets leaving Red Bull? He went from a top team to 2 midfield teams. I like to believe he believed in Renault’a vision rather than it being financial… maybe he wanted to be a #1 driver? But I don’t think anyone can look back and say it was a good decision to leave.

[charlierc]

4 hours ago, DareToDibble said:

I was thinking about this the other day… he’ll never admit it but I wonder if he regrets leaving Red Bull? He went from a top team to 2 midfield teams. I like to believe he believed in Renault’a vision rather than it being financial… maybe he wanted to be a #1 driver? But I don’t think anyone can look back and say it was a good decision to leave.

I don't think leaving Red Bull was a bad idea per say if Renault had pushed on in 2019 rather than try to develop on the cheap, and his form in 2020 was generally excellent, but there must be a part of him that sees how Red Bull developed in 2019/20 from being a team good enough to sneak a win on their day to what they are now and wonder if he could've had a chance.

Leaving Renault for McLaren was absolutely the worse decision of the two though, arguably for both parties given McLaren are paying one of F1's largest salaries to a driver that Norris has comfortably outshone in their 2 seasons together (except, ironically, Monza last year).