Brexit Schmexit

[russycarps]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't disagree.

The fudge will involve a form of words that doesn't rule out the wants of both sides, while suggesting they'll happen but not committing to anything. "we want the same things but more talks required" or something.

Much like the agreement last December that claimed these were committed-to things while also saying nothing was agreed until everything was agreed.

Oh sorry I see what you mean, a fudge to get a withdrawl agreement approved. 

The only problem with the WA is that it may well preserve our trade and other treaty arrangements with the EU states. But that is not the case with non-EU states. Even with a WA, in March 2019 we leave the EU. Will all the states that the EU has trade agreements with really treat us as if we were still in the EU without a murmur? It seems unlikely.

What about the many other arrangements that go via the EU like the EU-US Open Skies agreement? With Trump in the White House it's absolutely not clear that agreements like that will still be honoured in the transition.

An extension to A50 is our best hope (assuming that reversing the referendum result is a non-starter).

 

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, russycarps said:

Can you explain, precisely, what your optimism is based on?

Well, mainly on your ridiculous pessimism.

[russycarps]

On 9/14/2018 at 11:27 PM, Ommadawn said:

Well, mainly on your ridiculous pessimism.

So absolutely nothing at all then. Fair enough, you're most certainly not alone.

I sincerely hope you do remain ignorant of the topic though, because the reality of what we seem likely to be heading towards is thoroughly depressing. 

 

 

 

[zahidf]

Oof

[zahidf]

I can think of one EU proposal for frictionless trade

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I can think of one EU proposal for frictionless trade

May's trying to bottle it, to try and make the EU come with the terms ... so they can get the blame. I don't think they're going to fall for that one.

 

[lost]

21 minutes ago, zahidf said:

I can think of one EU proposal for frictionless trade

Which neither of the two main parties support. Looking a like a Jez/Boris hard brexit without a deal

[zahidf]

Telegraph front page looks like it agrees with macron!

[zahidf]

Oh god, As Chequers appears to crash & burn, it's reassuring to hear from Chris Grayling this morning that  preparations for No Deal are all in hand.

We are all doomed

[eFestivals]

49 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Oh god, As Chequers appears to crash & burn, it's reassuring to hear from Chris Grayling this morning that  preparations for No Deal are all in hand.

We are all doomed

wonder if Labour have taken notice of what the EU said, and whether they still think that no deal is better than a bad deal?

[zahidf]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

wonder if Labour have taken notice of what the EU said, and whether they still think that no deal is better than a bad deal?

Yup may being humiliated is bad news for labour. Tories playing a blinder by being in charge at the moment:-/

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Yup may being humiliated is bad news for labour. Tories playing a blinder by being in charge at the moment:-/

it's a crock of shit from all of them until one of them has a workable plan.

[zahidf]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it's a crock of shit from all of them until one of them has a workable plan.

Not having a plan on opposition outside of an election is different to being on government with a deadline.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Not having a plan on opposition outside of an election is different to being on government with a deadline.

true, but over brexit I'll be cheering the one who isn't determined to throw us off a cliff, if we get a reversal from one of the parties who currently want to chuck us over. It's not only tories who can be morons. 

If what we got was May's 'Chequers deal' (we won't, but go with this) it's a damned sight better than no deal - and Jez and co would vote to give us no deal. Think about it!

[zahidf]

37 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

true, but over brexit I'll be cheering the one who isn't determined to throw us off a cliff, if we get a reversal from one of the parties who currently want to chuck us over. It's not only tories who can be morons. 

If what we got was May's 'Chequers deal' (we won't, but go with this) it's a damned sight better than no deal - and Jez and co would vote to give us no deal. Think about it!

Depends: if it's 'vote for people's vote with option to remain' or chequers deal, then I can live with that 

Labour conference this week should firm up whether they are asking for another vote.

(Which I'm.not  in favour of, but I acknowledge my preferred ignore the last referendum result doesn't have much backint)

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, zahidf said:

(Which I'm.not  in favour of, but I acknowledge my preferred ignore the last referendum result doesn't have much backint)

saying a public vote can be ignored is saying you want democracy to end - cos if the EUref can be ignored entirely then so could an election vote.

It needs a specific vote on the EU to get ourselves out of this shit with any sort of sense beyond stopping brexit. A general election can't do it, either.

[kaosmark2]

There isn't really the political, legal, and logistical time to organise another referendum before A50 triggers. 6 months to decide the question and answers, get it through parliament, and arrange the voting thing. It's either going to be no deal, a shit deal, or an A50 extension. The chance to can Brexit has gone.

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

There isn't really the political, legal, and logistical time to organise another referendum before A50 triggers. 6 months to decide the question and answers, get it through parliament, and arrange the voting thing. It's either going to be no deal, a shit deal, or an A50 extension. The chance to can Brexit has gone.

there's the time to do it. There was an election called and done and dusted within 3 months (and that's more complicated). There's not the will to do it, but that's a different thing.

There's still all options open in practical terms for how it can still play-out, tho of course some are more likely than others .... and I can't see "pretend the ref didn't happen" as being near the top of those. We are where we are, and not only do we have to think about the brexit problem, we also need to think about consequences beyond that - and saying 'votes don't matter to politicians if politicians change their minds' isn't one for good future stability.

meanwhile...

Rabb's gone mad, saying "We have been rebuffed on our plans without any coherent explanation as to why", and complaining that there's "no credible alternative on the table from the EU". When the ministers are so fucking thick that they don't get any part of the problem, we're fucked.

And just to make sure we're not in any doubt, looks like May's going to try and tough it out. 

[zahidf]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there's the time to do it. There was an election called and done and dusted within 3 months (and that's more complicated). There's not the will to do it, but that's a different thing.

There's still all options open in practical terms for how it can still play-out, tho of course some are more likely than others .... and I can't see "pretend the ref didn't happen" as being near the top of those. We are where we are, and not only do we have to think about the brexit problem, we also need to think about consequences beyond that - and saying 'votes don't matter to politicians if politicians change their minds' isn't one for good future stability.

meanwhile...

Rabb's gone mad, saying "We have been rebuffed on our plans without any coherent explanation as to why", and complaining that there's "no credible alternative on the table from the EU". When the ministers are so fucking thick that they don't get any part of the problem, we're fucked.

And just to make sure we're not in any doubt, looks like May's going to try and tough it out. 

Theresa mays big speech has to be postponed.

 

Because of a lack of power in number 10

Ha ha ha ha ha

Edited September 21, 2018 by zahidf

[kaosmark2]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there's the time to do it. There was an election called and done and dusted within 3 months (and that's more complicated). There's not the will to do it, but that's a different thing.

There's still all options open in practical terms for how it can still play-out, tho of course some are more likely than others .... and I can't see "pretend the ref didn't happen" as being near the top of those. We are where we are, and not only do we have to think about the brexit problem, we also need to think about consequences beyond that - and saying 'votes don't matter to politicians if politicians change their minds' isn't one for good future stability.

meanwhile...

Rabb's gone mad, saying "We have been rebuffed on our plans without any coherent explanation as to why", and complaining that there's "no credible alternative on the table from the EU". When the ministers are so fucking thick that they don't get any part of the problem, we're fucked.

And just to make sure we're not in any doubt, looks like May's going to try and tough it out. 

In many ways, an election is simpler, as the question and answers don't have to be decided. The candidates have to be given some time to prepare, but with a referendum, it'd take a lot longer to get through parliament.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

In many ways, an election is simpler, as the question and answers don't have to be decided. The candidates have to be given some time to prepare, but with a referendum, it'd take a lot longer to get through parliament.

An election would require the parties to decide on answers to the brexit question. It couldn't be ignored.

So ultimately an election would become a referendum by another name, but with less democratic terms to it or outcome from it.

[zahidf]

 

[zahidf]

Ah Tories in full blame the EU for not giving us cake mode

 

 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Ah Tories in full blame the EU for not giving us cake mode

yup, it's the only way they can play it, or appear to be morons.

Is Jez going to give up being a moron before he proves himself a moron? Or are there only morons?

[zahidf]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yup, it's the only way they can play it, or appear to be morons.

Is Jez going to give up being a moron before he proves himself a moron? Or are there only morons?

Jez is covering all the bases

"Theresa May’s Brexit negotiating strategy has been a disaster. The Tories have spent more time arguing among themselves than negotiating with the EU.

From day one, the Prime Minister has looked incapable of delivering a good Brexit deal for Britain. The political games from both the EU and our Government need to end because no deal is not an option."