Ched Evans

[pink_triangle]

31 minutes ago, GETOFFAMYLAWN said:

They did decide otherwise, but they've gone back on that.

You do realize that's the whole point of having an appeal process? Can you be confident that criminal trials always give the correct verdict? Make no mistake I haven't got any agenda here. I presumed his innocence until proved guilty, presumed guilt until the verdict was quashed and will presume innocent until the next trial. I'm not saying that justice is perfect, but I trust it more than me making my best guess without all the relevant information.  Whether he is a scumbag is very different to whether he is a rapist.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, GETOFFAMYLAWN said:

They did decide otherwise, but they've gone back on that. Long drawn out years of hoighty strangers debating whether or not you are a slag who was asking for it is nobody's idea of fun, especially after you've already been horribly violated and traumatised for life.

they've gone back on it because they've realised the original decision was not reached via a fair process that properly considered all of the facts.

If you were wrongly convicted, would you be telling yourself you had to suck it up for the greater good of society?  You're talking bollocks, and you know it.

I'm far from comfortable about what the girl might be put thru again in court if she's truly a victim of a crime (she might not be, remember. That's what the retrial will decide) - but that doesn't mean that justice is better served by someone being wrongly convicted to spare her from that repeated process.

[lost]

So on the other side if he gets off what happens to Evans? 4 years out of the game, was just breaking into the Welsh team and may of been lining up against England in the euros in two months time if this hadn't happened? 

[TheGayTent]

I'd jail his parents for naming him Chedwyn. 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, lost said:

So on the other side if he gets off what happens to Evans? 4 years out of the game, was just breaking into the Welsh team and may of been lining up against England in the euros in two months time if this hadn't happened? 

Ultimately, it's unable to be addressed. It's just one of those things. Shit happens.

There's no right to recompense for a wrongful conviction (tho some is sometimes given). Society - and so an individual caught up in it - has to accept that sometimes they'll be errors, but the system is designed to try and correct any errors that might happen (as is happening in this case via an appeal and then a retrial).

Evans has to accept it as an unwanted consequence of his risky behaviour. If you want to lessen the chance of something similar, the way to do so is to not take the risk that things might turn out how they did.

That's of course "not fair" (if he's not guilty at the retrial) on him, but the best result we can hope for is something that fair for all of society - and it's certainly fair that an allegation of a crime is looked into and tried in court and a conclusion about the allegation is reached.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, TheGayTent said:

I'd jail his parents for naming him Chedwyn. 

I'd vote for that.

 

[feral chile]

11 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

You do realize that's the whole point of having an appeal process? Can you be confident that criminal trials always give the correct verdict? Make no mistake I haven't got any agenda here. I presumed his innocence until proved guilty, presumed guilt until the verdict was quashed and will presume innocent until the next trial. I'm not saying that justice is perfect, but I trust it more than me making my best guess without all the relevant information.  Whether he is a scumbag is very different to whether he is a rapist.

Quite.

[pink_triangle]

27 minutes ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

And thing is, even if he is found not guilty, the chances of him getting another playing contract are very very slim I reckon.

I disagree, i think he is pretty certain to get a contract particularly as he will set his sights lower than his natural talent level.  Before his conviction he was headed for the premiership and several international caps. He wont reach that level now, but I think he will find a league one job, then it will depend how he plays.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Before his conviction he was headed for the premiershi

well, apart from the fact he'd had to leave the Prem to actually get a game because he wasn't good enough for the Prem.

 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

I still reckon there'll be fallout from sponsors and fans. Probably not to same level as when he first came out and tried to sign for - I wanna say - Oldham? but enough to make smaller clubs who can't afford to lose a load of fans not wanna touch him. 

if footie fans are now going to hang people for NOT having a conviction, we might as well return to the stupidity of fighting on the terraces.

Fuck me, sometimes I end up thinking that brains were outlawed in about 1995 but somehow I missed the cull myself.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by eFestivals

[lost]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

well, apart from the fact he'd had to leave the Prem to actually get a game because he wasn't good enough for the Prem.

 

A bit harsh.. he wasn't good enough for City in the same way Drinkwater wasn't good enough for Utd.

[eFestivals]

Just now, lost said:

A bit harsh.. he wasn't good enough for City in the same way Drinkwater wasn't good enough for Utd.

No, he wasn't good enough for City in the days when they were still shit.

It's quite a different thing.

[pink_triangle]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

well, apart from the fact he'd had to leave the Prem to actually get a game because he wasn't good enough for the Prem.

 

I was watching Jamie Vardys goals stopping Wrexham winning the conference a s few years ago.  This season he may end up a premiership winner, PFA player of the year and playing in Euro 2016. There are clearly players who drop out of premiership clubs and work there way back up the system. Before the allegations he was on an upwards trajectory he was scoring nearly a goal per game at league 1 and attracting the attention of top championship/bottom premiership sides. You cant prove either way, but in my view because of his stats, age and position theres little doubt he would have tasted premiership football.  I suspect he wouldnt have succeeded at that level, but certainly would have been a regular championsip player.

[lost]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, he wasn't good enough for City in the days when they were still shit.

It's quite a different thing.

Well I never saw him play for Sheff Utd but has lots of friends who support them and they saw him as similar to a Kyle Walker in that he was playing above the level the rest of the team were. Obviously there is no guarantees with youngsters

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Do you not think it's okay to make a moral judgement on people holding very public postions.

Yeah, but I think hounding someone out of the game for not committing a crime - in fact (if found not guilty) doing nothing that's wrong in the eyes of society - is taking things too far.

It doesn't improve society to treat someone as a criminal who is not a criminal.

Personal judgements that remain as personal judgements are something else to mob rule.

Edited April 22, 2016 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

if footie fans are now going to hang people for NOT having a conviction, we might as well return to the stupidity of fighting on the terraces.

Fuck me, sometimes I end up thinking that brains were outlawed in about 1995 but somehow I missed the cull myself.

 

They only culled those with brains. Don't worry, you're safe

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

I think most of society take a dim view to what he admitted to doing in court. 

If it was (as he claims) with her consent, what is there to take a dim view of?

What two - or three - people might do privately together is no one's business but their own.

No one's asking you to join in Barry, so you don't have to be scared of it. 

[eFestivals]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

Was her being filmed consensual?  

Cheating on his partner was low.

 

I see your point though.  If it was consensual I suppose you just have to live with the fact everyone are filthy bastards these days

Yep, cheating on his partner would be his biggest wrong as far as I can see (I wasn't aware it had been filmed).

And I'm not entirely sure anything is more filthy nowadays. It's not like this generation invented sex.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

I cant remember now but didn't someone film it through a window or was that another footballer sex scandal?

ah, yeah, you're right.

There's a lot that's sleazy around it, but if (the retrail finds) it's not rape it's not rape. He'll have already spent 2.5 years (I think) in jail for a crime he didn't commit, and had his promising career ruined, and that can't be undone.

Let the guy move on with his life. Don't demand he's treated in exactly the same way as if he had been a rapist.

I thought you Christians were big on forgiveness? It's a bit much if you won't even cut any slack where there's been no crime.

[pink_triangle]

57 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

  

Cheating on his partner was low

If there was to be a cull of footballers who were guilty of this, how many would be lef!

[Guest]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

No, he wasn't good enough for City in the days when they were still shit.

It's quite a different thing.

Oi we were not shit, we were just on a break from being good.

[Uncle Liam]

21 hours ago, eFestivals said:

if footie fans are now going to hang people for NOT having a conviction,

It's not just footie fan though. There are plenty of people who would quite happily see him strung up. It will be interesting to see if many, or indeed any of the comments thrown at him after his release are retracted. I would imagine this case doesn't even make it to retrial, and if it does it's likely the crown case collapses.

Who can Ched Evans pursue through the civil courts? Presumably he'll get some kind of financial compensation for the 2 1/2 years in prison. Can he pursue those he obstructed his return to football post release? 

[eFestivals]

23 hours ago, Uncle Liam said:

There are plenty of people who would quite happily see him strung up

I'm sure there are.

There's also plenty of, for example, racists.

The world has plenty of morons, who knew?

It doesn't mean we should let them rule the world tho, does it?

[eFestivals]

23 hours ago, Scruffylovemonster said:

And the chants from opposition fans will be 'colourful' no matter what the verdict. (Not that that should influence anything). 

I'm sure they will.

I'm not suggesting he should get a free pass from what he's done, I'm suggesting that he shouldn't be treated as a rapist if he's not a rapist.

[kaosmark2]

Rape victims getting more quizzed about their sexual history in court in the aftermath of Ched Evans' appeal:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rape-victims-being-quizzed-about-their-sexual-history-in-court-a7563506.html

So disgusting. I said when the appeal came through that I'd trust in the courts' judgement, but I was very wary of the fact her sexual history had been used as evidence for the impact of precedent, and it seems it's becoming so. Sigh.