The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

Having listened to the whole debate though I think nothing is very clear for the Scottish people on what would be best for them,

Yeah independence is a huge risk... but it could also be extremely rewarding...

Stay with the UK and everything largely stays the same... But the out come for Scotland is not likely to greatly change either.

I actually think they should vote with their hearts on this one. I don't think there is enough certainty to make a decision based on "facts" and certainties.

I agree. I don't think independence will be better for Scotland (and I don't think the rUK would benefit from it leaving either), but I accept they should be able to. If they vote with their hearts for independence, because they want independence, then that's completely justified and warranted, but as Neil says, the SNP aren't trying to say "we should be making our own future", they're going "vote for independence and we'll make you richer".

[eFestivals]

I actually think they should vote with their hearts on this one. I don't think there is enough certainty to make a decision based on "facts" and certainties.

yep - which is precisely what i've said from the off.

That's not how the vote is going to work tho, as that BBC poll exposed.

People are being conned into voting yes via the most tenuous of claims that they're falling for as fact (or at least, as the most-likely outcome).

And then you see all sorts of stuff from yes campaigners, saying "there's nothing positive about the union else they'd say what those things are".... at the same time as the yes campaign is talking about the benefits of the union from CU, EU, borders, academic research funding, and much more.

Alongside nationalists pretending to be something other than nationalists, it all gets to be very VERY funny.

But it's funny to me because the consequences aren't mine.

Edited April 3, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Well I think we would be poorer without Scotland personally, in every way, not just financial.

yep, I agree too - tho not in any tory unionist sense, just to make that clear.

That doesn't mean that I stop laughing at the ridiculous tho. I laugh at it no less when it comes from "English" political parties.

[Wooderson]

Well I think we would be poorer without Scotland personally, in every way, not just financial.

Would you be poorer without Northern Ireland?

[eFestivals]

Would you be poorer without Northern Ireland?

It ends being not quite the same thing from the 'British mainland', because of there being no land borders.

Try it this way: would Ireland be worse off if border posts and passport checks and customs checks were the default* between itself and NI?

(* made all the most complicated by the fact of there having been those things to some extent during 'the troubles').

Borders - whether physical or intellectual - between peoples is rather silly. At the end of the day the only people who see them as necessary are those who are in conflict with those on the other side of that border, and such conflicts are always about "it's mine, it's all mine". Greed!

Edited April 3, 2014 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

I haven't read the article yet, but the lead story on the Times today was saying that if the Scots do vote for independence, then the Scotish MPs in the UK parlaiment should lose voting rights, as their days are numbered. Obviously there's the big if in there, but would be interesting what would happen to the Danny and Douglas Alexanders et al.

[eFestivals]

I haven't read the article yet, but the lead story on the Times today was saying that if the Scots do vote for independence, then the Scotish MPs in the UK parlaiment should lose voting rights, as their days are numbered. Obviously there's the big if in there, but would be interesting what would happen to the Danny and Douglas Alexanders et al.

I believe it's the case (I've not checked voting records) that SNP MPs already choose to not vote on non-Scottish issues (tho, i'm guessing, what classes as a 'Scottish issue' is at their own discretion, so some might disagree at where they draw that line).

If independence goes ahead there's got to be a point somewhere that Scottish MPs lose their UK voting rights, tho quite where the ideal for that might be I've got no idea.

I do think Scottish MPs (of both 'yes' or 'no' viewpoint) should, tho, be definitely barred from voting on the Scottish Independence Act (or whatever it might be called, if/when it happens). Scotland's influence over the terms of separation should start and end within the referendum and iScotland's independence negotiation with rUK.

In the wider view tho, this is probably Dave Moron floating the idea in the hope it gets enough support to help knobble the chances of a non-tory winner in June 2015.

There's already a strong suspicion in some quarters that the tories are trying to encourage Scottish independence to increase their own electoral chances going forwards. And I believe it's the case that Dave Moron would have secured a majority if Scotland was removed from the last election.

[eFestivals]

I agree with this but I doubt they can make it a reality. I would imagine the formal separation of Scotland from the UK would take sometime and would take us well beyond the election. Which would mean Scottish MPs would retain the right to vote surely if at that point they are still part of the UK ?

iDay for an iScotland would be sometime in spring 2016 if the vote in 6 months is yes.

(there is an exact date, I just don't know what the exact date is, just a general idea of that date).

[Wooderson]

It ends being not quite the same thing from the 'British mainland', because of there being no land borders.

Try it this way: would Ireland be worse off if border posts and passport checks and customs checks were the default* between itself and NI?

(* made all the most complicated by the fact of there having been those things to some extent during 'the troubles').

Borders - whether physical or intellectual - between peoples is rather silly. At the end of the day the only people who see them as necessary are those who are in conflict with those on the other side of that border, and such conflicts are always about "it's mine, it's all mine". Greed!

I doubt there would be a 1980's NI-style security checkpoint border between England and an independent Scotland.

[russycarps]

oof this Oxford economics report doesn't make pretty reading for the yes campaign.

[eFestivals]

I doubt there would be a 1980's NI-style security checkpoint border between England and an independent Scotland.

I don't doubt they'd be the full normal customs and passport checks between England and an independent Scotland if their individual goods or peoples entry criteria varied too much.

So, much like everything else, for iScotland to have what it thinks best for itself will have it ape-ing the unionism that it says is so bad for it.

[eFestivals]

oof this Oxford economics report doesn't make pretty reading for the yes campaign.

Do you think?

Apparently, it's a worthless bit of biased "Project Fear", on the basis that the report's 'independence' is not independent but biased because it's been commissioned by a biased organisation - I know a white paper like that - and it's Project Fear because it says something different to what the nats would like everything to say.

There can be no criticism of the white paper, it's beyond reproach and 100% independent like everything that agrees with Alex... because that Alec Salmond is perfect with the best ideas and never gets anything wrong... he didn't ever think that the pound was Scotland's millstone, he didn't ever think the Euro was perfect for Scotland, and that arc of prosperity hasn't gone bankrupt.

Edited April 4, 2014 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

Do you think?

Apparently, it's a worthless bit of biased "Project Fear", on the basis that the report's 'independence' is not independent but biased because it's been commissioned by a biased organisation - I know a white paper like that - and it's Project Fear because it says something different to what the nats would like everything to say.

There can be no criticism of the white paper, it's beyond reproach and 100% independent like everything that agrees with Alex... because that Alec Salmond is perfect with the best ideas and never gets anything wrong... he didn't ever think that the pound was Scotland's millstone, he didn't ever think the Euro was perfect for Scotland, and that arc of prosperity hasn't gone bankrupt.

"taxes and borrowing costs would be likely to rise, while public spending would be cut after independence"

And at the same time corporation tax will be slashed to 3p under the UK rate.

Meanwhile "Oxford Economics challenged the Scottish government's estimate that this would produce 27,000 extra jobs as over-optimistic."

Brilliant.

That fat cat CEO of the Weir Group was spot on with this comment:

"To those who say that means I am doing Scotland down, my reply is simple: we need more facts and less emotion in this debate,"

Edited April 4, 2014 by russycarps

[kaosmark2]

"To those who say that means I am doing Scotland down, my reply is simple: we need more facts and less emotion in this debate,"

I disagree with that. We need more emotion and less bullshit and lies in this debate. If the Scottish want independence for its own sake, fair enough, if they want it because of some economic bollocks, that's just silly.

[russycarps]

I disagree with that. We need more emotion and less bullshit and lies in this debate. If the Scottish want independence for its own sake, fair enough, if they want it because of some economic bollocks, that's just silly.

I think emotion is perfectly fine with the voters, but the debate should be about facts only. You cant debate emotion, it's soo subjective.

I reckon, anyway.

Edited April 4, 2014 by russycarps

[kaosmark2]

I think emotion is perfectly fine with the voters, but the debate should be about facts only. You cant debate emotion, it's soo subjective.

I reckon, anyway.

If Salmond, instead of spouting lies and bullshit, was going "I believe Scotland is independent at its heart, because..." and then continued with a load of rhetoric about Scottish identity and the soul of the country, etc. I wouldn't think less of him. He wouldn't be dealing with facts but he would be trying to justify an emotional decision and why his feelings are one way, unlike this current attempt at bribery.

[LJS]

Before I return to the rough & tumble of this debate, I'd like to pause to pay tribute to Margo MacDonald who died today. She won a bye election in Glasgow Govan for the SNP in 1973 - that's a bit like Tony Benn winning in Kensington & Chelsea.

Like Tony Benn she was no identikit/focus group/toe the party line politician. she was fiercely Independent & when the SNP couldn't accommodate her failure to march in perfect time to the party song, she left and fought & won election to the Scottish Parliament as an independent.

Also like Tony Benn she would not stand a snowball's chance in Helensburgh of getting onto the approved candidate list of any mainstream party today.

I would like to think that both sides of the border, together or apart we can find a way to allow people like Tony & Margo to play a part in politics.

If we can't do that we will all be the poorer for it.

Edited April 4, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Before I return to the rough & tumble of this debate, I'd like to pause to pay tribute to Margo MacDonald who died today. She won a bye election in Glasgow Govan for the SNP in 1973 - that's a bit like Tony Benn winning in Kensington & Chelsea.

Do behave. It's much MUCH more like Farange winning Kensington & Chelsea.

Not actually a very big political leap at all. Much of the same policies, but with an isolationist slant.

[LJS]

Do behave. It's much MUCH more like Farange winning Kensington & Chelsea.

Not actually a very big political leap at all. Much of the same policies, but with an isolationist slant.

congratulations on managing to find a way to get a dig in at the Yes campaign in reply to my non partisan post.

What the Hell Farage has to do with this, I have no idea

[Buff124]

The Herald captured it in the headline 'Margo MacDonald - the politician who transcended politics'

She passed away after a lengthy battle against Parkinson's Disease, during which time she remained a very active member of the Parliament She was 70

[eFestivals]

congratulations on managing to find a way to get a dig in at the Yes campaign in reply to my non partisan post.

What the Hell Farage has to do with this, I have no idea

I was simply correcting your analogy, keep your hair on.

Margo MacDonald's politics wasn't so far away from the Govan norm. Likewise, Farange's politics isn't so far away from the Ken & Chelsea norm.

Their individual politics are vastly different, but where they both mostly differ from the norm in those locales is their nationalist angles.

Tony Benn winning Ken & Chelsea would be like the tories winning Govan. Just about impossible.

Get it?

[LJS]

I was simply correcting your analogy, keep your hair on.Margo MacDonald's politics wasn't so far away from the Govan norm. Likewise, Farange's politics isn't so far away from the Ken & Chelsea norm.Their individual politics are vastly different, but where they both mostly differ from the norm in those locales is their nationalist angles.Tony Benn winning Ken & Chelsea would be like the tories winning Govan. Just about impossible.Get it? [/quote

I know this will be hard for you. but perhaps, as I am old enough to remember the Govan byelection & lived in the neighbouring constituency, I may actually know a bit more about this than you. It was a massive shock.

& my point about Margo was not to praise her because she was pro independence but because she was true to her principles & put them above her political career.

[eFestivals]

It was a massive shock.

so exactly the same as the chances of UKIP winning any seat in the next general election, then.

And my correction stands.

[Buff124]

Margo MacDonald's passing has been described as a 'national tragedy'. I'm moved to post a lament in tribute to her

[LJS]

so exactly the same as the chances of UKIP winning any seat in the next general election, then.

And my correction stands.

I wouldn't be that surprised if Nutty Nigel won in K&C

The SNP had never contested Glasgow Govan before 1970 when they gained 10% of the vote. They were a different party form the SNP of today & were frequently portrayed as "Tartan Tories" This result can not be explained as a mid term protest against the Government because the Tories under Ted Heath were in power.

So, nothing like nutty nigel winning K&C.

Incidentally the seat which used to contain some of the biggest on the Clyde was held by the Conservatives from 1950 to 1955 so the Tories were not always the endangered species in Scotland that they are now. So perhaps those of us (including myself) who have as part of reason for a Yes vote, guaranteeing no more Tory governments should be a little cautious!!