The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

the argument for yes now just seems to be "anything but the tories must be better"

In fairness mate, I`ve heard worse arguments.

[Comfy Bean]

Apologies for my lack of input. I am on my northern travels again wending our way to Belladrum where we will have the pleasure of hearing Tommy Sheridan...guaranteed a bit more passion than last night.

We had no signal in our hotel last night but had a tv.

I don't dispute that darling "won" but it doesn't alter my belief that independence offers the best long term future for Scotland. It would be nice to get a bit more coverage from some of the other people in the Yes campaign. (not meaning Tommy there)

Anyway. Onwards & upwards. We have lost a battle not the war.

Enjoy Bella mate. Just getting back to " normal " after doing the Wickerman - Kendal Calling double. Sun Sun Sun at Wickerman and a whole lotta mud at Kendal. Hope you get it good mate.

Was pretty painful viewing the other night. Anyone thinking that Darling won it out the park is deluded but he certainly " won " as you say. Dreadful stuff from both sides at times but on a night where Salmond needed to win and win big he fell way short in my opinion. He had Darling on the " promised extra powers front " where Darling was left speachless and when he asked him if he agreed with Cameron that Scotland " could " be a successful country ( 5 or 6 times ) I was cringing at the lack of an answer.

Was it just me or did anyone else think Darling had to just say " Yes I`m sure that it could be BUT.... I believe that it would be even more successful as part of the UK blah blah blah ".

The fact that he couldn`t / didn`t answer it after so many chances was a real let off for Salmond. It has now meant that there is a general view up here that none of the 2 of them would/could answer a question.

Considering we are now so close to the vote, I cannot believe that Salmond went with the alien and side of the road pish. He had obviously been advised to try and belittle Darling and the No Thanks campaign by bringing up some of the shite that project fear have come away with but for me it totally backfired.

I appreciate 100% that I am biased but my view was that Salmond was asked the question about currency and he answered it. Fair enough if you don`t agree with his answer but in any negotiation, who is going to say " well I think we want this as it is for the best for us but since you asked I will probably accept this as an alternative ".

So we are all agreed that Darling " won " and yet the talk is still all about Alex. What does that tell us about " No" ?

I liked the way he brought up the Labour Council Leaders who are backing YES as I think that there are Labour voters who can be persuaded even at this late stage but he never really hammered that home as was to busy fannying about with what people said in the past ( and taking it out of context ). Again, Darling could have delivered a killer blow by saying something like " Yeah but I also used to believe in Santa ". Darling had nothing to say about the number of food banks and children in Scotland born into poverty but again this was lost in the silly " you said this in 19canteen " garbage.

I have said from post 1 that NO will win it 60 /40 and sadly I still think this will be the case. I remain convinced that YES is the way but now feel that my YES vote is becoming a token gesture. It`s not all over yet of course and we all know that Salmond can do better. Hopefully the vote will be won or lost out on the doorsteps but YES now need Salmond to get on the front foot next time. I thought he might also have tried to appeal more to the Labour voters and hammered home the point that this is not about the SNP.

How about " If you want the SNP out, vote YES and then vote for a real Labour party at the first Scottish general election ".

If Scotland vote YES then we will never ever ever be governed by the London Tories. Whats not to like ?

A YES vote will allow a working class majority vote to be in control of who makes the decisions that matter to the people of Scotland. No need to appeal to the Banker types and middle englanders just make decisions that are for the best for the folks who live in Scotland. " We " are not interested in ruling any waves or being part of the Empire - Yuk.

In the 80`s in Scotland, Foot`s Labour beat the Tories 41-21 ( seats )

In the 90`s in Scotland, Kinnock managed 49-11. Neil I`m sure you will be all over this and I apologies if my info is wrong. Please feel free to correct. We just want different things us Jocks, no offence is meant, we think that we have a younger generation coming through up here that can make our decisions for us and leave you folks with Dave and the boys if that is what you want. Its a pretty sad state of affairs that so many people who do not live in Scotland would deny us the opportunity to make our own decisions especially when those among you who have a genuine interest know exactly what is coming down the line for us after the next general election - whoever wins. I suppose it is in your history / breeding to feel superior - " Rebellious Scots to crush "

[Comfy Bean]

Neil, If I may, you never got back to me about why Richard Branson was so interested in the good of your health ?

Dave has Trusts in NHS England. Scotland has Boards. Thought you would have been all over this for the good of us ALL. Don`t think that the NHS is the game changer for YES just as I don`t think that it is all about the oil but I raised this after you took the piss out of Ricky Ross and am genuinely interested in your views........

[Comfy Bean]

There'll be no Swedish situation for iScotland. If the EU did that, the markets would destroy the Euro in a few months.

" Destroy "

[kaosmark2]

Scots aren't different to many areas of England in wanting the Tories out. Isn't going "fuck you lot, we'll abandon the rest of you to them" incredibly selfish as well?

Also, given that Salmond is proposing a CU and other such malarky, that would actually make an independent Scotland DEPENDENT on rUK but without any ability to vote on policies. I don't see how that's better.

[tolywoly]

Was pretty painful viewing the other night. Anyone thinking that Darling won it out the park is deluded but he certainly " won " as you say. Dreadful stuff from both sides at times but on a night where Salmond needed to win and win big he fell way short in my opinion. He had Darling on the " promised extra powers front " where Darling was left speachless and when he asked him if he agreed with Cameron that Scotland " could " be a successful country ( 5 or 6 times ) I was cringing at the lack of an answer.

Was it just me or did anyone else think Darling had to just say " Yes I`m sure that it could be BUT.... I believe that it would be even more successful as part of the UK blah blah blah ".

The fact that he couldn`t / didn`t answer it after so many chances was a real let off for Salmond. It has now meant that there is a general view up here that none of the 2 of them would/could answer a question.

That would have been the commonsense answer, and I'm sure it would have been on the tip of Darling's tongue. But you can't blame him for not rising to the bate. Withn 5mins of saying it there would have been stuff circulating on Facebook (and elsewhere) taking it out of context, claiming Darling's 'admitted' Scotland could be a successful independent country. During the course of the debate he'd already had to contend with Salmond quoting from a Newsnight interview out of context. Like Salmond with the currency question, he just made the calculation that there was less to lose appearing to be evasive than giving a direct answer.

Salmond was surprisingly badly advised in going with the aliens/road thing. You can see what he was trying to do, but when people have turned up wanting serious answers to serious questions that's just going to piss them off. Stuff that plays well to your hardcore supporters, might not resonate with a wider audience. It's easy to get stuck in a self reinforcing group-think loop if you're always preaching to the converted. Labour party members used to love calling the Nationalists 'Tartan Tories', but I don't think they ever successfully landed the concept outside of the party.

Yes should have put Sturgeon up against Darling. Salmond's position should have been - it's Cameron or nothing for me, you can debate my deputy. Sturgeon's got more chance of winning people round. Salmond's too much of a Marmite character, particularly with women. He's already too closely associated with Yes. But maybe his ego won't allow him to step back.

Edited August 8, 2014 by tolywoly

[LondonTom]

A YES vote will allow a working class majority vote to be in control of who makes the decisions that matter to the people of Scotland. No need to appeal to the Banker types and middle englanders just make decisions that are for the best for the folks who live in Scotland. " We " are not interested in ruling any waves or being part of the Empire - Yuk.

I must have missed the cull the Etonians had in England for the working class then?

I fogot when everyone England became a banker and a house wife.

Basically what you are actually doing is splitting the working class vote, as its not going to be the working class moving to Scotland for Alex's proposed tax breaks.

[Comfy Bean]

That would have been the commonsense answer, and I'm sure it would have been on the tip of Darling's tongue. But you can't blame him for not rising to the bate. Withn 5mins of saying it there would have been stuff circulating on Facebook (and elsewhere) taking it out of context, claiming Darling's 'admitted' Scotland could be a successful independent country. During the course of the debate he'd already had to contend with Salmond quoting from a Newsnight interview out of context. Like Salmond with the currency question, he just made the calculation that there was less to lose appearing to be evasive than giving a direct answer.

Salmond was surprisingly badly advised in going with the aliens/road thing. You can see what he was trying to do, but when people have turned up wanting serious answers to serious questions that's just going to piss them off. Stuff that plays well to your hardcore supporters, might not resonate with a wider audience. It's easy to get stuck in a self reinforcing group-think loop if you're always preaching to the converted. Labour party members used to love calling the Nationalists 'Tartan Tories', but I don't think they ever successfully landed the concept outside of the party.

Yes should have put Sturgeon up against Darling. Salmond's position should have been - it's Cameron or nothing for me, you can debate my deputy. Sturgeon's got more chance of winning people round. Salmond's too much of a Marmite character, particularly with women. He's already too closely associated with Yes. But maybe his ego won't allow him to step back.

Good post. I still think that Darling could have delivered a knock out blow as Salmond was well off form but I take your point that it was a risk he didn`t need to take ( so far in front ). By agreeing that Scotland " could " be a successful country he would probably have had his words taken way out of context (again) as you say. It looks like NO can only throw it away now so doubt Darling will want to get into a scrap next time round either.The next live debate will most probably be even worse than the first one. I don`t disagree with what your saying in the last paragraph either.

[Comfy Bean]

I must have missed the cull the Etonians had in England for the working class then?

I fogot when everyone England became a banker and a house wife.

Basically what you are actually doing is splitting the working class vote, as its not going to be the working class moving to Scotland for Alex's proposed tax breaks.

Fair enough but it could also be viewed as diluting it when taking it across the whole UK. In the part of my post that you didn`t quote I gave some figures from the 80`s and 90`s ( was trying to demonstrate some historical trends ) that showed that Scotland would have voted in by some distance Kinnock and Foot.

It`s nothing personal and it isn`t anti - English. Lets call it Country A voting one thing and Country B voting for the " opposite " but Country A don`t get what they voted for and instead have to be governed by the decision taken by Country B. How is this fair or sensible ?

It`s not complicated - Should Scotland be an independent Country ? If it is then atleast we would be responsible for our own feck ups !

I`m not sure where you live but you think the answer is NO ? Why would you think this ? I`m quietly confident that we would be capable of running our own affairs. Do you disagree ? It wouldn`t be easy and who knows what party would win the first, second, third election but one thing we do know is that it would not be the London Tories.

The point about the working class majority I attempted to make is again nothing personal against anyone in England. We are just different Countries who continue to vote for different things. At this point I would guess that an independent Scotland would vote in the SNP during our first general election. I am pretty confident though that if they failed to deliver a set of policies that sat well with working class people up here then there is more chance of them being out on their ear and replaced by a " real " Labour party than is likely to happen with the current set up. That is all I was trying to say about the working class majority thing. Our countries are different in the same way as most countries are the world over. England voted in the Tories ( well almost ) Scotland did not.

[LondonTom]

Fair enough but it could also be viewed as diluting it when taking it across the whole UK. In the part of my post that you didn`t quote I gave some figures from the 80`s and 90`s ( was trying to demonstrate some historical trends ) that showed that Scotland would have voted in by some distance Kinnock and Foot.

You wouldn't have as neither were born in Scotland or an MP in Scotland. So an independent Scotland wouldn't have had that choice to make...

It`s nothing personal and it isn`t anti - English. Lets call it Country A voting one thing and Country B voting for the " opposite " but Country A don`t get what they voted for and instead have to be governed by the decision taken by Country B. How is this fair or sensible ?

It`s not complicated - Should Scotland be an independent Country ? If it is then atleast we would be responsible for our own feck ups !

Except for Scotland for the purposes of democracy isn't a country. London mostly votes Labour, should we seek independence from the rest of England as apparently everyone in London votes differently to the rest of the country?

I`m not sure where you live but you think the answer is NO ? Why would you think this ? I`m quietly confident that we would be capable of running our own affairs. Do you disagree ? It wouldn`t be easy and who knows what party would win the first, second, third election but one thing we do know is that it would not be the London Tories.

London, so I don't really have a position on yes/no. Its not for me to decide, but I'd rather Scotland stay apart of the UK, mainly because I can't see how spliting off is good for either rUK or Scotland. I guess mainly, I am trying to understand the mindset of voting indepedence, as if Scotland is really so different from the rest of the UK? In my mind, the only difference is the same as one between someone from Cornwall and someone from Newcastle.

The point about the working class majority I attempted to make is again nothing personal against anyone in England. We are just different Countries who continue to vote for different things.

The working class is practically the same in both "countries". The majority are ruled by a rich elite, its just most to apahetic/took in by spin to vote for anything different.

[Comfy Bean]

Not sure if you are being serious Tom on that first point or if you are taking the piss ??

In my original post on this, you left out the bit about the way Scotland had voted during the 80`s 90`s when you quoted my post. I said originally " Foot`s Labour beat the Tories ". I apologies for misquoting myself when I then said Foot and missed out the word Labour. You are quite correct to highlight that he was not a Scottish MP or in fact born in this Country. I suspect you know what I meant but only you will know. Just to be sure.... I was pointing out the margin of Labour victories in Scotland during that period and how they counted for nothing as we were ruled by a Tory government. Do you think that this is fair ?

On your second point we hold different opinions which is fair enough. For whats it`s worth, I think London is a city in England and Scotland is a Country.

Point 3, for me Cornwall and Newcastle are in the same country so I again disagree with your point.

In the last bit of your post you appear to have given up on a whole raft of folks whereas in Scotland this debate has engaged in many ( but not all ) of the people you " appear " to have given up on and surely they are being given the opportunity to vote for something different which has to be a good thing. Whatever the result ( probably NO ), I`m guessing that we would agree that the fact Scotland has had this vote / debate is a positive thing as it has got people talking politics whatever their views

[Comfy Bean]

So while the people of Scotland are told that the sky will fall in over the £ / currency union debate and Oxfam continue to warn about the alarming increase on food bank dependency in Scotland it`s business as usual in " our " capital city. I`m sure we are all a bit uneasy with how much UK taxpayers money will be wasted in all the private contract negotiations etc that will be hidden behind this project.

Wouldn`t think that the estimated figures will be accurate ( although they could of course be higher ) but as the Westminster partie(s) sharpen their pencils on the next round of welfare " reforms " it`s pretty sad reading.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/wakeup-call-london-needs-13-trillion-to-maintain-its-position-as-world-leader-9637505.html

[LJS]

Scots aren't different to many areas of England in wanting the Tories out. Isn't going "fuck you lot, we'll abandon the rest of you to them" incredibly selfish as well?

Yup, I thought that way for 30 years - voted in solidarity with the "working classes " of England & exactly what has that achieved?

I've asked this question here before and never received a satisfactory answer... maybe you can give me one ... Tell me how things are going to get better in the UK when we have a choice between the Tories & a "Labour" party trying to outdo the Tories in their zeal for benefit cuts?

[LJS]

Enjoy Bella mate. Just getting back to " normal " after doing the Wickerman - Kendal Calling double. Sun Sun Sun at Wickerman and a whole lotta mud at Kendal. Hope you get it good mate.

Was pretty painful viewing the other night. Anyone thinking that Darling won it out the park is deluded but he certainly " won " as you say. Dreadful stuff from both sides at times but on a night where Salmond needed to win and win big he fell way short in my opinion. He had Darling on the " promised extra powers front " where Darling was left speachless and when he asked him if he agreed with Cameron that Scotland " could " be a successful country ( 5 or 6 times ) I was cringing at the lack of an answer.

Was it just me or did anyone else think Darling had to just say " Yes I`m sure that it could be BUT.... I believe that it would be even more successful as part of the UK blah blah blah ".

The fact that he couldn`t / didn`t answer it after so many chances was a real let off for Salmond. It has now meant that there is a general view up here that none of the 2 of them would/could answer a question.

Considering we are now so close to the vote, I cannot believe that Salmond went with the alien and side of the road pish. He had obviously been advised to try and belittle Darling and the No Thanks campaign by bringing up some of the shite that project fear have come away with but for me it totally backfired.

I appreciate 100% that I am biased but my view was that Salmond was asked the question about currency and he answered it. Fair enough if you don`t agree with his answer but in any negotiation, who is going to say " well I think we want this as it is for the best for us but since you asked I will probably accept this as an alternative ".

So we are all agreed that Darling " won " and yet the talk is still all about Alex. What does that tell us about " No" ?

I liked the way he brought up the Labour Council Leaders who are backing YES as I think that there are Labour voters who can be persuaded even at this late stage but he never really hammered that home as was to busy fannying about with what people said in the past ( and taking it out of context ). Again, Darling could have delivered a killer blow by saying something like " Yeah but I also used to believe in Santa ". Darling had nothing to say about the number of food banks and children in Scotland born into poverty but again this was lost in the silly " you said this in 19canteen " garbage.

I have said from post 1 that NO will win it 60 /40 and sadly I still think this will be the case. I remain convinced that YES is the way but now feel that my YES vote is becoming a token gesture. It`s not all over yet of course and we all know that Salmond can do better. Hopefully the vote will be won or lost out on the doorsteps but YES now need Salmond to get on the front foot next time. I thought he might also have tried to appeal more to the Labour voters and hammered home the point that this is not about the SNP.

How about " If you want the SNP out, vote YES and then vote for a real Labour party at the first Scottish general election ".

If Scotland vote YES then we will never ever ever be governed by the London Tories. Whats not to like ?

A YES vote will allow a working class majority vote to be in control of who makes the decisions that matter to the people of Scotland. No need to appeal to the Banker types and middle englanders just make decisions that are for the best for the folks who live in Scotland. " We " are not interested in ruling any waves or being part of the Empire - Yuk.

In the 80`s in Scotland, Foot`s Labour beat the Tories 41-21 ( seats )

In the 90`s in Scotland, Kinnock managed 49-11. Neil I`m sure you will be all over this and I apologies if my info is wrong. Please feel free to correct. We just want different things us Jocks, no offence is meant, we think that we have a younger generation coming through up here that can make our decisions for us and leave you folks with Dave and the boys if that is what you want. Its a pretty sad state of affairs that so many people who do not live in Scotland would deny us the opportunity to make our own decisions especially when those among you who have a genuine interest know exactly what is coming down the line for us after the next general election - whoever wins. I suppose it is in your history / breeding to feel superior - " Rebellious Scots to crush "

Back from Bella which was fun as ever - they seemed to have a wee bit of referendum paranoia - I went to see Tommy Sheridan speak & was asked to remove my Yes badge on the way in!!! Tommy was as refreshing & off the wall as ever - as I have said before - every elected assembly should have a Tommy Sheridan - Westminster used to have Dennis Skinner & Tony Benn - who have they got now?

Billy Bragg (who I will confess, I have a clear bias in favour of ever since i saw him at Glastonbury in the 80's said he had been told no "symbols" or flags relating to the referendum would be allowed so he had drawn a large Eye (Aye) & sellotaped it to his speaker cabinet - he also spoke with passion & (for me) common sense about why he hopes we vote yes because it will be better for England! [he also retweeted a comment from my son - so I am even more biased]

Interestingly the only other acts who I heard commenting about the referendum were a guy from the blockheads who complained about how hard it would be to get to Inverness if you needed a (facking) passport & Adrian Edmondson (otherwise excellent) who spoiled it all by introducing a song with ... " I hear you got a vote coming up so we'll sing a German song - they knew a bit about nationalism."

Any Independence chat at Kendal Calling? - I took my daughter there last for her 16th birthday & loved it but we didn't fancy the line up this year so we are off to End of the Road as our "serious" musofest this year - I shall be taking the Yes message deep into "enemy" territory there!

p.s. - no i didn't go & see Tom jones

[LJS]

this is journalism?

What to do when Scottish Nationalists move in next door

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jennyhjul/100281894/what-to-do-when-scottish-nationalists-move-in-next-door/

Oh ... & here is the "Nationlist's" response

"I've said hello to what seemed to be the perfectly charming couple next door and their daughters have been absolutely lovely, but then all of a sudden this worryingly angry attack appeared online.

"I'm astounded by the anger and bile. It is hard to imagine where the hate has come from, but I feel very sorry for my new neighbours. It's deeply saddening that their experience of such a momentous year has been so negative."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/hayman-i-am-the-nationalist-actor-attacked-as-the-enemy-by-the-blogger-next.24999407

& then Bizarrely

Hjul declined to comment further on the grounds that as a working journalist, she doesn't wish to become the subject of her own story

She added: "That blog was meant as a light-hearted piece, but I suppose nothing is taken lightly at the moment."

Thank God no one under 90 reads the telegraph!

Edited August 10, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

I've asked this question here before and never received a satisfactory answer... maybe you can give me one ... Tell me how things are going to get better in the UK when we have a choice between the Tories & a "Labour" party trying to outdo the Tories in their zeal for benefit cuts?

To be frank, I don't think they will. I just think it'll get worse for both with an independent Scotland. I think Salmond is far worse than the Labour lot and barely any better than a lot of the Tories.

I also don't think Labour actually believe in benefit cuts, I think they've fallen into the horrible trap of trying to suggest their policies fit with the electorate (read tabloid's) political views. I also don't think they'd actually follow up on such policies, just in the same way Tories were pledging to match Labour spending until they got in power, and pledging green policies, and how Lib Dems pledged to stop tuition fee rises, and how Salmond is pledging a better life for Scots. All of them will take a massive shit on their promises the moment they get in and decide what they actually want to do.

It's an utter farce really. Doesn't make me think that an independent Scotland will be any better though.

[LJS]

To be frank, I don't think they will. I just think it'll get worse for both with an independent Scotland. I think Salmond is far worse than the Labour lot and barely any better than a lot of the Tories.

I also don't think Labour actually believe in benefit cuts, I think they've fallen into the horrible trap of trying to suggest their policies fit with the electorate (read tabloid's) political views. I also don't think they'd actually follow up on such policies, just in the same way Tories were pledging to match Labour spending until they got in power, and pledging green policies, and how Lib Dems pledged to stop tuition fee rises, and how Salmond is pledging a better life for Scots. All of them will take a massive shit on their promises the moment they get in and decide what they actually want to do.

It's an utter farce really. Doesn't make me think that an independent Scotland will be any better though.

Some fair points there. The problem is not so much the Tories ...we know we hat they are & what they stand for. The problem is the Labour party, we still like to think they are on the side of the workers over the bosses, the poor over the rich, the oppressed over the establishment.

But in reality that is ancient history. They are Tory Light, Diet Dave.

I feel massively let down by them.

Is Alex salmond any better?

Maybe a wee bit would be my answer. But it's the answer to the wrong question because, as I am tired of saying we are not voting for or against Alex salmond, for or against the Snp. The no campaign love to personalise it because they know, as someone said recently that Alex is marmite & less than 50% of Scots like him, so pin it on him & you win.

This is a decision for the long long term. My children will be feeling the benefits or otherwise long after Alex salmond is dead & buried.

[kaosmark2]

Some fair points there. The problem is not so much the Tories ...we know we hat they are & what they stand for. The problem is the Labour party, we still like to think they are on the side of the workers over the bosses, the poor over the rich, the oppressed over the establishment.

But in reality that is ancient history. They are Tory Light, Diet Dave.

I feel massively let down by them.

Is Alex salmond any better?

Maybe a wee bit would be my answer. But it's the answer to the wrong question because, as I am tired of saying we are not voting for or against Alex salmond, for or against the Snp. The no campaign love to personalise it because they know, as someone said recently that Alex is marmite & less than 50% of Scots like him, so pin it on him & you win.

This is a decision for the long long term. My children will be feeling the benefits or otherwise long after Alex salmond is dead & buried.

The thing is, in THIS independence campaign, Salmond would be the one negotiating terms of independence. Obviously many other parties could get into power, but the man guiding the transition, negotiating the terms, defining the initial differences and rules, will be Salmond.

Scottish independence, as a general policy issue, is something I can take or leave. I think there are valid motivations for it, valid reasons, and valid stances, but if THIS independence campaign wins, it will be based on Salmond's promises, Salmond's policies, and Salmond's lies.

As a major example that hasn't been brought up much (unlike currency), one of the biggest flaws in British "democracy" is that the royals can and do influence political decisions. Salmond doesn't want an independent Scotland to be a republic, he still wants to allow the queen sovereignty. An independent Scotland that is its own country should get rid of the monarchy as a priority.

So here's a question for you, what does "independence" mean?

[eFestivals]

Was it just me or did anyone else think Darling had to just say " Yes I`m sure that it could be BUT.... I believe that it would be even more successful as part of the UK blah blah blah ".

it probably would have been better if Darling had, but then again he didn't want to agree with some words that were being used outside of their full context.

Darling certainly wouldn't have agreed with the supposed words Darling said about a CU that yes-ers like to repeat - because the words yes-ers use are only half of the words spoken, no different to that Dave moron quote that Salmond was using.

[eFestivals]

Neil, If I may, you never got back to me about why Richard Branson was so interested in the good of your health ?

Dave has Trusts in NHS England. Scotland has Boards. Thought you would have been all over this for the good of us ALL. Don`t think that the NHS is the game changer for YES just as I don`t think that it is all about the oil but I raised this after you took the piss out of Ricky Ross and am genuinely interested in your views........

you need to say something i'M able to understand if you want a comment from me.

I don't agree with the contracting out of NHS services in England, but it puts the NHS in Scotland under no threat at all.

If you think it does, no wonder you find Salmond's lack of post-indy reality attractive ... cos you understand so very little.

Unless you're going to tell me how the contracting out of English NHS services does affect the NHS in Scotland?

[eFestivals]

" Destroy "

And I'm betting you're thinking that rUK won't do a CU with iScotland just out of spite, too?

[eFestivals]

It`s not complicated - Should Scotland be an independent Country ? If it is then atleast we would be responsible for our own feck ups !

so you'll be telling Alex to drop the CU thing, then?

You know, where he wants the rUK to pick up the tab for his fuck ups.

[eFestivals]

Yup, I thought that way for 30 years - voted in solidarity with the "working classes " of England & exactly what has that achieved?

When Scotland voted solidly to keep the current electoral system for Westminster, what has that achieved?

Yes-ers have based a lot of their argume3nt on how bad the Westminster system is, and yet Scotland voted to keep it unchanged - when they could have instead voted to have a more-proportional system.

And yet the sovereign will of the Scottish people becomes irrelevant in yes-ers eyes, because that sovereign will didn't suit the view of the separatists - who are clearly reject the democratic will of the people of Scotland.

Post indy, the no voters will be told how 'feart' the are, and that they're not true Scotsmen. I know that's true because it's happening right now too.

Isn't 'civic' nationalism a great thing?

[eFestivals]

But in reality that is ancient history. They are Tory Light, Diet Dave.

I feel massively let down by them.

Is Alex salmond any better?

Maybe a wee bit would be my answer.

I feel let down by Labour too. They've allowed themselves to be sucked into the tory narrative, and made that tory narrative the only game in town. However....

There's also a real-world financial issue: only things which can be afforded can be delivered.

And that real-world issue applies in iScotland as much as it does anywhere else, and so iScotland can only have better public services if they're able to be paid for.

And the simple fact is that iScotland will not be able to even cover its current level of public services - which means cuts in services post-indy, or tax rises - and so Alex's wet dream will not be delivered.

Edited August 11, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

The worst problem with the currency issue is that so few yes-ers who are choosing to comment actually understand what they're actually asking for.

There's a large number who say "you can't stop us", and that's the end of their thinking. Yes, rUK can't stop anyone using the pound, but they can refuse a CU.

There's a large number who think that rUK are refusing only out of spite - and yet those same people aren't acting as guarantors on their neighbours mortgaes, the spiteful bastards.

And then there's those who say "it's our pound" as tho what has happened up till now forces onto rUK the obligation to guarantee all Scottish debts for ever-more.

If any yes-ers actually understand the currency issue, the chances are they'll stop being yes-ers. Most people don't think that voting Scotland poorer makes Scotland a better place.