Football 2011-2012

[eFestivals]

So this is a word that should now be allowed in Britain?

'negro' is already a word that is allowed in Britain. It's not a racist word by default.

It's a word that some black people object to, but it's also a word that some embrace. It means simply 'black' (from the latin), and while it has been historically used in a derogatory manner as a racial slur it has not been exclusively used in that way.

Just to make it clear, I'm not supporting use of that word, but neither am I supporting a mindless approach to how use of that word should be taken.

[eFestivals]

Exactly...Yeah he's just misunderstood, I suppose the one finger salute to the fulham fans is some sort of cultural difference too ... Poor Liverpool, always the victims

Kenny in that t-shirt has lost any credibility he had

Seriously, could you see any other manager doing that when their player has just been found guilty of a racist act?

In fact I couldn't see any manager doing that in support of a player over anything, very unprofessional

Meanwhile Utd and their fans don't condemn the admitted racist within their own ranks.

[eFestivals]

Yet, I would imagine, the FA have consulted these language experts you speak of when making their judgement... And it would seem they came to a different outcome. Of course we have to wait to see what they did base their judgement on.

those language experts that you seem to be suggesting that you accept the word of know that it's use is bad or not by the context it's used within.

So it's a bit rich you acknowledging they have a place in making a judgement on how the word has been used, but then post guff like "no one seems able to come up with situation where the use of that word would of been, lets say, positive". The very fact those language experts are necessary is more than enough proof of situations where use of the word can be positive (or at least, not negative).

A judgement has been made, perhaps by those experts (tho perhaps by the panel rejecting what those experts have said), that the use was racist.

Care to show me where the guarantee of correctness is?

Things might become clearer if/when the full judgement is made public. I heard on Sky news this morning that Liverpool won't have that until mid-January, so until then the wise move is to not second guess their thinking or to state that their opinion is beyond dispute as you're doing. There are reasonable grounds to think they might have made the wrong decision in the meantime.

The same doubt does not apply to Evra's own admitted racism, yet he's so far been let off scott free. But Liverpool are the whingers, and everything has been fair and even.

Edited December 22, 2011 by eFestivals

[ralph250]

Neil. Regards United condoning the "admitted racist in our ranks", isn't it best to await further information. I've seen zero confirmation as yet that Evra has said or admitted to anything that could be construed as racist. Zero press have run Sudaca which you would've though they would've have if so, that's just internet rumour at present. The Telegraph (and others) reporting along the lines of "don't touch me south american" had the good old disclaimer "alleged", and the reference of the Liverpool statement doesn't mention race.

"We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms. Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult. "

Saying the equivalent of the C word in Spanish could be "in the most objectionable of terms". That's all we have to go on until the official statement. I'm not saying that there's not the possibility of Evra saying these things, but I think it's inadvisable to be reporting them as established fact when not, and as such not sure United fans are deserving of the accusations of hypocrisy until such has been established or determined.

...and regards Cantona, agreed there was a place for him once he'd served his sentence, but United internally disciplined him by suspending Cantona and fining him the maximum at the time. The club initially suspended him to end of Season (around 4 months), which was then extended by the FA to end of September (8 months).

[thetime]

Cantona was suspended by the club straight away until the end of that season.

I don't think you will find a comment of me actually supporting evra, more the

opposite.

I would have the same view if any player was being racist, man ltd or otherwise.

@festivals if people came on the forum using the same language suerez used, would you find that acceptable?

Edited December 22, 2011 by thetime

[The Nal]

Couple of great games on last night.

Ryan Giggs, has scored in 20 consecutive seasons now. Unbelievable. Utd stepping it up a gear. Hope Phil Jones is back soon.

Don't think I got any predictions right last night apart from City though. Stoke are very average away from home.

Liverpool a constant disappointment.

[lost]

@festivals if people came on the forum using the same language suerez used, would you find that acceptable?

[eFestivals]

Neil. Regards United condoning the "admitted racist in our ranks", isn't it best to await further information. I've seen zero confirmation as yet that Evra has said or admitted to anything that could be construed as racist. Zero press have run Sudaca which you would've though they would've have if so, that's just internet rumour at present. The Telegraph (and others) reporting along the lines of "don't touch me south american" had the good old disclaimer "alleged", and the reference of the Liverpool statement doesn't mention race.

I've not seen any explicit mention of "sudaca" in the papers either, but in UK law, racism is defined as something derogatory about race, ethnicity or nationality.

Given that Evra's admitted "you South American" comment (if not done as 'suduca") was done in a hostile manner - while Suarez's "negro" was not - then there's a stronger basis for condemnation of Evra for his words than there is of Suarez (on the basis of what's been reported, which is all we know of to discuss at this point).

If Suarez has been racist, then I can't see how Evra hasn't been too.

"We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms."

A perfectly made point in my eyes.

I'm not saying that there's not the possibility of Evra saying these things, but I think it's inadvisable to be reporting them as established fact when not, and as such not sure United fans are deserving of the accusations of hypocrisy until such has been established or determined.

and yet Utd fans are dishing it out on the basis of no more solid facts. So where exactly is any hypocrisy?

My point with today's posts has been to point that out.

...and regards Cantona, agreed there was a place for him once he'd served his sentence, but United internally disciplined him by suspending Cantona and fining him the maximum at the time. The club initially suspended him to end of Season (around 4 months), which was then extended by the FA to end of September (8 months).

And with the Cantona incident there was indisputable proof of wrong-doing. There's not the same in this case.

Until the full facts come out we can't know what basis the judgement against Suarez has been made, but from what's been reported there's ground for them to get it wrong. At the end of the day it's the opinion of the panel, which might not match the meant intent.

I'm hoping that that full judgement will give a clear basis for how they reached their decision and that it can't be undermined by different cultural takes on things - so there can be no doubts about Suarez's wrong-doing, because I feel that would be the best all-round result for football than lingering doubts about whether their decision was right. But from what's been reported that doesn't look too likely.

But all that aside, it appears to be the case that this matter has been addressed in one direction only, by Evra not having been charged. Whether he said "south american" in english or the clearly derogatory "sudaca", there's no less of a basis for the same charge against him as there was for Suarez.

[eFestivals]

@festivals if people came on the forum using the same language suerez used, would you find that acceptable?

In almost all cases no, but if it were done by a person from overseas I'd recognise that their cultural aspects don't necessarily make it the same thing as I'd rightly take it to be from a British person.

In the UK we have an uneven basis towards things like this where certain words are by default taboo, while other things which work on the same logical basis are not, or where the amount of offence caused by other much more publicly acceptable insults is the same. Other countries might work these things on a more logically sound basis than we manage.

[eFestivals]

no, we had a similar discussion here regarding young people using the word gay to mean bad.. it was decided the context wasn't important and it would always be deemed offensive hence isn't allowed

the very root of 'gay' to mean 'bad' is from homophobic ideas, so it's always homophobic.

The same is not true with 'negro'. It means simply 'black' as it's root, so is not by default racist (tho of course can be used in a racist manner).

They are not logically the same things.

[eFestivals]

Couple of great games on last night.

Ryan Giggs, has scored in 20 consecutive seasons now. Unbelievable. Utd stepping it up a gear. Hope Phil Jones is back soon.

Don't think I got any predictions right last night apart from City though. Stoke are very average away from home.

Liverpool a constant disappointment.

I watched the Villa/Arsenal game, tho could see the screen for the Fulham/Utd one too and kept half an eye on that.

Villa were hugely better than they were at the weekend and played with a lot of energy, while Arsenal were worse than they've been since August. I'd even go so far as to say that they played better in their whipping by Utd than they did last night, they couldn't string a pass together.

You got City/Stoke right Nal - but I did think that the two unusual results you'd plumped for was too unlikely, and so it proved. Not sure that I got any right tho (maybe the Everton game, will have to check what I went for).

The result of the night has to be the Baggies one I reckon. Good on them.

[eFestivals]

So do you think Saurez was compllimenting Evra on his lovely black boots

Nope, but it's certainly the case in south america that person might be called 'black' in just the same way as we might call someone 'blondie' - as a descriptive reference and nothing more.

We of course don't accept that sort of thing in this country, but logically they're an identical descriptive thing. And given that Suarez was speaking his native Uruguayan-Spanish at the time, it's hardly surprising that he might have meant it in the context that it's used by his native tongue.

If that's how it was it doesn't make it right - about the best that could be said of it is that it was an unwise thing to do when in England. But it's also the case that at that best it's not racist in intent, even tho that's how it's likely to be taken by people in the UK.

[eFestivals]

if I called someone "blondie" I would expect them to take offence...

I'm sure that Debbie Harry and everyone who bought her records are beating themselves up about it every day.

If you go to certain countries and kiss your wife in public you can expect serious concequences. My response would be not to kiss my wife in public.

Why is it ok for him to act like he is not in a different country ?

Care to point out where I or anyone else is saying that what Suarez is reported to have said is perfectly OK?

If you did kiss your wife in public in a country were it's not acceptable, while you might accept their right to put their consequences onto you for that, I hugely doubt that you'd personally be feeling that you'd done anything wrong (having done wrong to local customs is something different to that).

IU think declaring him a racist is on dodgy ground. Taking issue with what was said and then dishing out a mild punishment is by the by in my opinion.

He should just say sorry for causing offence, I didn't mean it that way, and move on...

The whole thing is a joke and I think Liverpool FC and its supporters are hurting themselves over it all...

The sort of vitriol that some Utd fans are dishing out makes any back-down by Liverpool unlikely. In fact, this country's unthinking attitudes to the cultural aspects of such things make any back-down unlikely.

I actually think that this incident might in the future be regarded as a watershed moment for attitudes towards racism in this country - where we move on from the sort of idiocy that has had some people proclaim 'blackboards' as racist, and we start to think about things in a better and more realistic context.

I'm not trying to say that what Suarez is reported as saying was OK, but I am pointing out that it is not the by-default wrong thing he's been accused of. People need to wise up to that IMO.

[The Nal]

http://www.dailymail...-Match-Day.html

Hansen in the shit...

[eFestivals]

If Saurez had said this in an office there would be little debate about the consequences of his actions...

If you heard a South American say something in his native language in an office where your only understanding of what he's said was your recognition of the word 'negro' and you called him a racist for it, I'd hope the laughter at you might get to die down sometimes prior to your death many years later.

A sensible person might take him to the side and advise him that it was unwise to use such words in Britain.

The most likely outcome from people between those extremes would, I think, be an ignoral of it, on the basis that what had been said was in a different language and so hadn't been understandable.

Edited December 22, 2011 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I would be feeling i did something wrong. Some people in this country find it offensive. A recent radio five phone in discussed it and some of the views where quite harsh towards it.

then that's the result of your often stated thinking that the law can never be wrong.

Most of us have our own moral values. If I don't see kissing my wife in public as wrong in this country, then I wouldn't see it as wrong in another country either.

It being wrong against their local laws and my acceptance of that is something else.

I think most people here can see it as not being "by-default" wrong... Most of us have considered both sides of the argument before coming to a conclusion.

I still can't see a reason for saying what he said based on:

• it was a heated football match

• Evra was certainly not a friend

That's because you are looking at things strictly from your own cultural viewpoint. For others with a different cultural viewpoint the situation is not as you're regarding it as.

• He would of known that it could caused offence to some people (ignorance is not an excuse)

"would"? How do you know he "would"? Stop making it up.

"should", yes. As someone pointed out yesterday, it's a failing of the club or football in general to not be providing education to imported players about such things.

But then again, a 'normal' immigrant to these shores wouldn't be given any educational lessons about such things, they'd be left to pick it up as they went along - and there's a good chance that they might only pick up on it being considered wrong after they'd made that 'wrong' themselves.

It's all very well looking at these things in those sorts of simplistic terms, but real life rarely pans out in that simple way.

I have never heard anyone take offence to the term blackboard....

Have you never heard the word 'chalkboard' being used as a substitute for 'blackboard'?

There is a body of unthinking PC opinion that is too stupid to differentiate between 'black' as a slur and 'black' as a harmless description with no link whatsoever to anything derogatory.

The board is black, the board is not chalk. 'Whiteboards' never get called 'penboards', do they?

I hate to say it, but the Daily Hate Mail has correctly pointed out the stupidity of that attitude on a regular basis.

And guess what Suarez might well have been doing, given his native culture?

Edited December 22, 2011 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Aston Villa v Arsenal, 0-3

Man City v Stoke, 1-0

Newcastle v West Brom, 2-0

Everton v Swansea, 1-1

Fulham v Man Utd, 1-3

QPR v Sunderland, 0-2

Wigan v Liverpool, 0-1

I got none of them right on the scores, and only got four out of seven right as results (as win/lose or draw). Poor show.

[ralph250]

I've not seen any explicit mention of "sudaca" in the papers either, but in UK law, racism is defined as something derogatory about race, ethnicity or nationality.

Edited December 22, 2011 by ralph250

[The Nal]

[eFestivals]

So basically you are saying it migh of been at best ignorance or at worse defiance of our local culture...

No, I'm saying at best it might have been understandable but still ignorance of local sensitivities, and at worst that Suarez is a racist (which is more than just having been racist).

Anything between those extremes is a possibility, tho I'd personally rule out Suarez being "a racist" because of his ethnic background without something further than what's been reported to point to that possibility.

From what's been reported the most likely scenario to me seems to be him acting in the (non-racist) manner of his native culture, but I'm not ruling out other possibilities. For example, another of the stronger possibilities in my mind is that he was being deliberately racist for the purposes of winding Evra up - but his consolatory manner and what's been reported of the words exchanged after the players had spoken to the ref takes away from that possibility.

Without fuller details it's impossible to say. While the panel have made their judgement, that might just be the way they felt was right to decide on the basis of what might have been weak evidence all round and might be nothing more than their opinion - and might be wrong. I'll attempt to draw a firm conclusion if/when the fuller details are known.

From where things are at the moment, I'm hoping that the panel had solid and unequivocal evidence for their conclusion, because I feel a clear basis for their decision will be the best outcome for football overall.

[Paul ™]

http://fourfourtwo.com/news/restofeurope/92770/default.aspx

Keeper never kicked the *unt hard enough

[strummer77]

Pretty sure the FA verdict wouldn't of been based on criminal level of evidence so I think you might have fuel to complain going forward... I think you are expecting a criminal level of evidence to be presented...

[Wooderson]

Nal, funny as that is chief - it is wildly inappropriate.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Wooderson

[strummer77]

Watched that last night and thought there may be a bit of a media backlash alright.

Its all getting a bit silly now.

[strummer77]

But does it... Surely this stuff is in the boundary of a civil dispute,like all football issues... If it was more the CPS would be looking at it surely...

You are basically saying that issues of racism should ONLY be handled by the crown...