Football 2011-2012

[the_hedge]

Anyone heard of this Chu Young Park that Arsenal have signed?

[ralph250]

Anyone heard of this Chu Young Park that Arsenal have signed?

[The Nal]

Anyone heard of this Chu Young Park that Arsenal have signed?

Edited August 30, 2011 by The Nal

[the_hedge]

Surprisingly for an Arsenal signing, no.

Must be east Asian with a name like that?

Ten minutes ago he was signed but now Arsenal have ended their interest in Gary Cahill.

Wenger: “Well-uh, we felt that he was too big and strong and would cause other teams too many problems when trying to score against us”.

[jammy2211]

... I think I must have been watching a different league.

They always looked well short, and the demonstration of just how much they were short was them almost being caught by a Liverpool who had a dreadful dreadful first half of the season.

Defoe scores too few, and VDV is too slow. They're not top 4 players.

I agree that Arsenal's squad is very thin but those 11 players who were out at the weekend definitely takes it up a big notch.

Gervinho is going to be much better than Chamakh - I reckon he's already shown that with the little he's played. Once the other players click onto how he plays he'll be knocking them in for fun or helping others do the same.

I reckon a good indicator of the strength of both squads are the defenders they've both just let go - with Traore going out of Arsenal for more than Hutton from Spurs.

If Arsenal get most of the players they're chasing then they'll be streets ahead again. And while they might not get those players they're not a club chasing ghost signings which don't stand a chance of happening 'Arry.

[eFestivals]

It was all as I've said down to them being unable to balance the CL and PL anyway, which isn't such an issue this season (And no Europa league doesn't count)...

a good manager would have handled that better. 'Arry shafted the club in pursuit of his own glory - something I said many times last season.

Why do you think 'Arry is suddenly going to throw away his clearly stated mercenary ethics for the good of the club this season when he wouldn't do that last season, a season which was MUCH more important for the progression of Spurs than this season can ever be?

Non of Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs can claim to have a host of world beaters... Liverpool have probably Suarez as the only proven one (Gerrard if he ever gets back to the player he was?), and Arsenal a RVP who tends to always get injured for reasonably long spells. I've no idea why you're writing Spurs off but I guess it's just a matter of wait and see, all i will say is at the moment this is still pretty much the Spurs side that finished 4th, but with VDV thrown in, Bales come on a bit and a better GK.

I've not got to watch Arsenal in the PL (Excpet the 8-2) and L'pool yet this season so I'm trying not to judge them yet but Spurs imo are better then they were when they did get 4th so really it's a matter of where Arsenal / Liverpool are. Hopefully I'll get to watch them properly soon.

I'm seeing nothing that's an improvement for Spurs this season over what they had last season. Who have they signed so far that makes them that better team (bearing in mind the players who have gone, too)? I'm seeing them as weaker, not stronger.

On paper Spurs might have an equal squad with Liverpool, but the reality is quite different. David Bentley, for example, plus the other over-paid/over-priced slackers that had Spurs hanging round the bottom.

And then of course there's 'Arry. He's great at geeing up players, but only until they realise that he'll say anything to them but it means f**k all. And they're realising!

[jammy2211]

a good manager would have handled that better. 'Arry shafted the club in pursuit of his own glory - something I said many times last season.

Why do you think 'Arry is suddenly going to throw away his clearly stated mercenary ethics for the good of the club this season when he wouldn't do that last season, a season which was MUCH more important for the progression of Spurs than this season can ever be?

I'm seeing nothing that's an improvement for Spurs this season over what they had last season. Who have they signed so far that makes them that better team (bearing in mind the players who have gone, too)? I'm seeing them as weaker, not stronger.

On paper Spurs might have an equal squad with Liverpool, but the reality is quite different. David Bentley, for example, plus the other over-paid/over-priced slackers that had Spurs hanging round the bottom.

And then of course there's 'Arry. He's great at geeing up players, but only until they realise that he'll say anything to them but it means f**k all. And they're realising!

[pink_triangle]

Ten minutes ago he was signed but now Arsenal have ended their interest in Gary Cahill.

We

[kaosmark2]

Maybe it'll all go tips up when he leaves but that doesn't matter here. So far his record at Spurs has been pretty damn good and I can't see a reason for that to change this year.

[thetime]

gary neville book...

grab yourself a bargain liverpool fans.

Edited August 30, 2011 by thetime

[thetime]

It always does, because his wheelin' 'n' dealin' bankrupts a club with excessive wages, for players who'll only perform for 2, maybe 3 years, then still have a ridiculously high salary. Levy's smart enough not to let him do that, hence why they haven't been buying players this transfer window.

[kaosmark2]

thats not his job though is it? its up to the chairmans and the cheif executives to sort the wages out.

[ralph250]

I don't get this 'Arry shafted the club by trying to put up a fight in the CL.

What are you suggesting he could've done? play the B team against Real Madrid/Milan to keep the first team for the league?

To obtain and then sustain a top 4 position, a club needs to attract and retain higher calibre players.

Not selecting the first team would've gone down like a sack of spuds and probably caused a mutiny with those existing players at the club, whose ambitions are to play CL football. Their ambition isn't for the club they're at to compete in the CL, but then for the club to give that opportunity to the reserves. What motivation will they have to put in the performances necessarily over the season to fight off the challenge of the other competitors for 4th? They're not the beneficiaries if do as above.

Equally throwing in the towel before the game would've made the club look incredibly smalltime and damage their reputation on the European stage. They'd look incredibly unattractive to new target players, and the players that would be of the requisite quality to help push for that top 4 wouldn't give Spurs the time of day.

edit: I'm not too keen on the idea of him being England manager either.

Edited August 31, 2011 by ralph250

[ralph250]

I am in the minority but I think arsenal are right to look elsewhere. Bolton are in dreamworld valuing a player with 1 yyear left on his contract for a similar amount as kompany, pique and vidic combined were sold in recent years. The last think Arsenal need is another young player with little big game experience. I think Metersacker is perfect for arsenal, he is big and strong, a good age and has champions league and international experiece. £8.8m also seems a fair price and when you hear the likes of everton wanting close to £20m for jagielka its a no brainer.

Favourite quote from guardian podcast yesterday, "the arsenal bench was so weak, one didnt even have a wikipedia entry!"

[strummer77]

Liverpool i think the jurys still out, looked good but some of those signings are suspect

Edited August 30, 2011 by strummer77

[metallimuse]

Liverpool i think the jurys still out, looked good but some of those signings are suspect and I think most people are iffy on whether they're 'top 4' quality... certainly got more depth then Arsenal though.

Edited August 31, 2011 by metallimuse

[chappiepunk]

Going to be an interesting last day of the transfer window for spurs fans

Crouch/Palacios/Bassong/Hutton all possibley going

Cahill/Diarra possibly arriving

I bloody hope Levy and Redknapp have got another "VDV" signing up their sleeve....

[chappiepunk]

Hargreaves medical for City

[chappiepunk]

Going to be an interesting last day of the transfer window for spurs fans

Crouch/Palacios/Bassong/Hutton all possibley going

Cahill/Diarra possibly arriving

I bloody hope Levy and Redknapp have got another "VDV" signing up their sleeve....

[kaosmark2]

Its a very strange one if he signs... I read it will be on a pay as you play basis, how many games is he going to get in City's midefield.. even if he does stay fit for a whole season.

[eFestivals]

I don't think they've lost anyone since the season they came 4th except Keane (Woodgate, but he didn't play anyway...)? Looks like the same side, but with Freidel, VDV, Gallas, Kaboul (Full season)... King was maybe a bit more fit back then too.

It's atm the same bulk of players, so if you think they've got worse then it's clearly a feeling of player deterioration or something. I don't think any of them have gotten too 'old' yet, no new major injuries... and some have improved in the last two years so I can't see a weaker squad there, no.

I don't particularly think they've got worse - tho it is the case that the goals aren't going in as they were.

The year they came 4th was more down to the weakness of other teams rather than the strength of Spurs. Those other teams are now much stronger.

You can hate on Harry all you want (Which is where I think this whole neglect of Spurs is coming from) but he's got a pretty dam good record at whatever club he's been at. Maybe it'll all go tips up when he leaves but that doesn't matter here. So far his record at Spurs has been pretty damn good and I can't see a reason for that to change this year.

the only record of his that's consistent across clubs is bankrupting them - every one of them. Are Spurs next?

Outside of that I don't have much feeling towards 'Arry, either positive or negative. He's a decent enough manager, but his strength lies in geeing up players and not tactics. He's not a top manager.

His record at Spurs has been good, and I don't expect that to much change. But you're giving him too much credit for their success, when it's been less about Spurs becoming great and more about the failings of other teams. That's not me saying he's not made a difference with Spurs - he definitely has. But it's more the case that he's got them playing at the level they should have been playing at given the players they've had rather than him getting those players to over-perform.

[eFestivals]

I don't get this 'Arry shafted the club by trying to put up a fight in the CL.

What are you suggesting he could've done? play the B team against Real Madrid/Milan to keep the first team for the league?

Not quite that, but he needn't have thrown everything at it, at the expense of the league.

To obtain and then sustain a top 4 position, a club needs to attract and retain higher calibre players.

something that becomes an impossibility once a club isn't in the top 4.

If 'Arry hadn't gone at the CL as hard as he did, he could have had 2 seasons in the Chumps, and been able to attract better players, and perhaps build the club up into a firm top 4 club. By doing what he did he's ensured that it's not going to be possible to do that for 5+ years at least.

Not selecting the first team would've gone down like a sack of spuds and probably caused a mutiny with those existing players at the club, whose ambitions are to play CL football. Their ambition isn't for the club they're at to compete in the CL, but then for the club to give that opportunity to the reserves. What motivation will they have to put in the performances necessarily over the season to fight off the challenge of the other competitors for 4th? They're not the beneficiaries if do as above.

managers manage such things, if they're up to managing things.

If players are as mercenary as you say, then they'd be open to being convinced of the benefit of a long-term plan for them to play CL footie each year rather than just once followed by CL failure.

Equally throwing in the towel before the game would've made the club look incredibly smalltime and damage their reputation on the European stage. They'd look incredibly unattractive to new target players, and the players that would be of the requisite quality to help push for that top 4 wouldn't give Spurs the time of day.

there's a middle ground been 'Arry's 'all' and the 'nothing' you suggest here as the alternative.

I've not said that Spurs should have 'thrown in the towel', but by throwing in the towel for the Prem as they've done by going for CL glory then they've achieved all of the things you've said there anyway - it's harder for them to get those 'top' players now being out of the CL than it would have been if they'd still been in it but not going for it at full strength.

In the modern game, CL footie is essential for any club that's looking to progress. Spurs don't have it, but they could have done. What more is there to say, really?

[ralph250]

Neil, if done as you say, they wouldn't have been able to attract those better players even if secured a second season. Those higher calibre targets attracted to Champions League football would just look at the precedent at the club and think "huh, all the signings who came in last year didn't get to play in Europe, I'll look elsewhere thanks".

I see what you're saying about trying to convince players of a long term plan but imo its a case of Spurs got 4th when their wagebill was £67m (end 2010), 40% less than Arsenal, 49% less than Man Utd and 61% less than Chelsea. Then last summer City spent another tonne load. Liverpool this summer have shown what the clubs that fall out are likely to do; hit the market hard.

They're taking a knife to a gunfight and a lot of the players would look at the here and now, rather than an unlikely future. I think it would be hard to convince a player to delay their ambitions on the chance that with enough years Spurs might be able to establish themselves and sustain it. The odds are against it, and how long are you trying to convince them that saving them for domestic football is the best. Do you let them have a proper crack at Europe in the 2nd year, or delay it to the 3rd, or the 4th, or the 5th. As said, eventually they're going to question the beneficiaries of it, and come to the conclusion it's them just performing for the board and shareholders. Equally allowing those players to test themselves and gain experience at the highest level will probably help trying to compete against the other top teams in the league. I'm not sure it's best to pass up those opportunities.

The way I see it, Spurs gave it a good crack, finished 5th and only 6 points off, and if the season lasted another month quite possibly would've got 4th given Arsenal's form (Arsenal's League form since Carling Cup final defeat: DDDWDDLWLLD / DLL)

Modric may well be staying and if they can keep him motivated, likewise Adebayor, they're not going to be in too bad shape. They're strongly linked with Lassana Diarra and Cahill. Walker is a decent prospect. Friedel less likely to chuck points away than Gomes. They can give it another go and hope for the best. A decade ago and they may have been able to consolidate and do like you say, but it's bad timing at present, what with new ambitious ownership at City and Liverpool willing and able to make investment over and above Spurs' means.

Edited August 31, 2011 by ralph250

[thetime]

I'd say they all seem pretty decent mate. Enrique has blown me away, he seems the real deal. Although I've gotta keep remind meself that Josemi had a good start...

[eFestivals]

Neil, if done as you say, they wouldn't have been able to attract those better players even if secured a second season.

they would have had a half-chance, cos they'd have had CL footie, and as you've said, players want CL footie.

Having no CL footie means they have no chance at all. Zilch. Zero.

The way I see it, Spurs gave it a good crack, finished 5th and only 6 points off, and if the season lasted another month quite possibly would've got 4th given Arsenal's form (Arsenal's League form since Carling Cup final defeat: DDDWDDLWLLD / DLL)

I don't see that, when both those clubs finished the season with dreadful form. Why should one of those clubs gets the benefit of your doubts but not the other?

Modric may well be staying and if they can keep him motivated, likewise Adebayor, they're not going to be in too bad shape. They're strongly linked with Lassana Diarra and Cahill. Walker is a decent prospect. Friedel less likely to chuck points away than Gomes. They can give it another go and hope for the best. A decade ago and they may have been able to consolidate and do like you say, but it's bad timing at present, what with new ambitious ownership at City and Liverpool willing and able to make investment over and above Spurs' means.

Yep, they might improve their squad yet this window, but as yet they haven't. Adebayor is good - but not that good, and really only gets to cover the drop-off in goals from Defoe and Crouch.

I agree that the timing of getting into that top four was unfortunate and made it all the harder for Spurs - tho I think what's happened with Liverpool gets to say that much the same would have happened at any time and without City getting rich; the 'top 4' clubs aren't going to give up being in that 'top 4' without a fight at any point in time.

They can give it another go, and they might manage a good go if 'Arry gets Levy to open the chequebook to the extent he hopes (something I doubt myself, with Spurs now running at a loss). But I'll be hugely surprised if they're anywhere in the running come April.