Football 2010-2011

[Cardboard Box City]

His last season in the Prem he was the Prem's most effective player (and 2nd most the season prior to that if my memory is right) via the stats.

[eFestivals]

Poppycock.

I have always thought Rooney not to be as good as many do - and have been bashed for it on here numerous times - however, at PL level Rooney is a proven goalscorer over many seasons. That's why he hasn't been tagged 'inconsistent' the way Walcott has.

Walcott doesn't get picked consistently, let alone play well very often. That's why he has been correctly labelled inconsistent.

If Walcott was picked for 13 games when his efforts on the field had fallen short of what is hoped and expected from him then you'd perhaps have a point making a comparison like that.

I wasn't comparing them as players, I was comparing the comments they both get after their respective poorer performances. Walcott is no less inconsistent than plenty of players who get nothing like the same stick.

The only time Walcott has been picked consistently (I think around 2 years back now?) he was playing out of his skin, but then got injured. He's not had a decent run in the team since then (a lot due to further injuries, but some also Wenger's choice) to build up any chance of being consistent.

It looks like he's going to get a decent chance this season to show the critics as wrong. If he gets his chance and blows it, come back and tell me I'm wrong then and wave this post in my face.

[eFestivals]

Babel going to Tottenham

You sure? The rumour is that it might also be WHU, in a deal with Cole going the other way.

Of those two possibilities, I see the WHU deal as much more likely - Liverpool need a backup striker with Cole having been rumoured loads, and selling a player (however duff) to Spurs seems like a daft move if Liverpool are aiming for 4th.

[eFestivals]

2007/2008: 2 goals, 7 assists.

2006/2007: 2 goals, 5 assists.

Stats like that mean f**k all. They tell you sod all that's meaningful about any player.

As I've said, Helb was rated as the Prem's most effective player in his last season at Arsenal. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[TheGayTent]

i wasn't comparing them as players either.

One is good though over rated.

The other is a fast headless chicken.

You don't really need to look past the 21 year old who doesn't get picked often.

[eFestivals]

i wasn't comparing them as players either.

One is good though over rated.

The other is a fast headless chicken.

You don't really need to look past the 21 year old who doesn't get picked often.

I seem to remember you saying just how highly you rate Postman Pat as a manager.

Given that Pat has now fessed up to f**king up with his WC player choices by the inclusion of Walcott but not Lennon in the latest squad, perhaps you should also be revising your opinion to better match the opinion of a manager you hold in such high regard?

(me, I don't rate Pat. He's Sven mkII, as proven by his awful subs choices this summer).

Edited August 31, 2010 by eFestivals

[TheGayTent]

You sure? The rumour is that it might also be WHU, in a deal with Cole going the other way.

Of those two possibilities, I see the WHU deal as much more likely - Liverpool need a backup striker with Cole having been rumoured loads, and selling a player (however duff) to Spurs seems like a daft move if Liverpool are aiming for 4th.

[Cardboard Box City]

Look it up if you don't believe me.

[TheGayTent]

I seem to remember you saying just how highly you rate Postman Pat as a manager.

Given that Pat has now fessed up to f**king up with his WC player choices by the inclusion of Walcott but not Lennon in the latest squad, perhaps you should also be revising your opinion to better match the opinion of a manager you hold in such high regard?

(me, I don't rate Pat. He's Sven mkII, as proven by his awful subs choices this summer).

[Steve P]

That shows how good your player appreciation is.

His last season in the Prem he was the Prem's most effective player (and 2nd most the season prior to that if my memory is right) via the stats.

[eFestivals]

Where would this be?

One of them is the Opta stats (or perhaps another of the major stats gatherers ... but I think it was Opta).

Another is at (I think, from memory) a football research unit of some kind at the University of Brum.

I remember seeing a feature on TV at the time, with the professor (or whatever he was) from Brum talking the TV interviewer thru how it worked.

[The Nal]

P.S. Who are these 3-4 world class players???

[TheGayTent]

I'll give you 1 1/2 out of 4.

[pink_triangle]

Cashley, Gerrard, Rooney and pre affair Terry.

[eFestivals]

Or does it maybe show that i've seen him play live at least 50 times and so might be in a better place to judge him than you?

given that it's not my opinion on him but the opinion of those who stat players professionally, I don't think it matters how much of his effectiveness you might or might not have noticed.

The effectiveness stat, what does that mean exactly? If stats stating goals scored and assists made mean sod all then how can you bang on about something as utterly subjective as "effectiveness"? If the stat is about completed passes, then it would make sense. He rarely played difficult passes and through balls, instead preferring to double back and pass back to another midfielder. I can assure you that when he left for Barca that few tears were shead. Lets not forget he was as an attacking midfielder and so should be judged as that.

Stats stating goals scored and assists *DO* mean sod all by themselves. After all, stats like that deem every defender as shit.

How exactly the stats are worked out I don't know.

But if I was the one trying to measure effectiveness, then I'd include passes completed, but I'd also factor in somehow a measure of what resulted from a completed pass - with each measured thing having a weighting of some kind.

After all, it's fairly easy for a player to have a high completed pass rate but that doesn't necessarily make that player particularly effective - for example, I'd suspect that Lumpard has astounding stats for passes, but as they're nearly always the easiest pass (and rarely a forward pass, most often sideways or backwards) they don't actually add much to the effectiveness of the team by themselves.

I'm certainly not surprised that Arsenal fans weren't sad to see him go - he was a whinger, and didn't much look like he wanted to be playing for Arsenal. However, some of the comments he's made on the last two years get to show he's realised how foolish he was, so I can see him returning (if he does) with an improved attitude.

Edited August 31, 2010 by eFestivals

[TheGayTent]

How exactly the stats are worked out I don't know.

[ampersand]

So you don't know how these stats are worked out, yet you're happy to base your opinion of a player on them? Whilst at the same time, discount the opinion of a person who has seen them live in the flesh on many ocassions?

[The Nal]

Depends how you judge world class. The general opinion in the british media seems to be ibra isnt world class because of performances in the big games. So on that basis can rooney be called world class after flopping in 2 champions league finals and pretty much every world cup match he has ever played. Gerrard has his moments but also has never really starred on the international stage. As for john terry I dont think he deserves to be classified in the same group as the likes of baresi, maldini, nadal and thuram. Looking at england in my opinion only cole is proven at premier league, champions league and world cup level and rarely flops in big games.

[eFestivals]

So you don't know how these stats are worked out, yet you're happy to base your opinion of a player on them? Whilst at the same time, discount the opinion of a person who has seen them live on many ocassions?

yep. It's a no-brainer.

After all, the people gathering the stats will be paying a damned sight more attention to everything that a player is doing than a fan watching not that player but the whole game.

Added to that is the fact that the professionals - managers, etc - place an awful lot of faith in those stats, using them for their own purchases. Which is how come Barca bought Hleb in the first place.

It makes a change for you to be claiming that the professionals know f**k all. But I'd say it's par for the course from a "real fan".

Edited August 31, 2010 by eFestivals

[Steve P]

But if I was the one trying to measure effectiveness, then I'd include passes completed, but I'd also factor in somehow a measure of what resulted from a completed pass - with each measured thing having a weighting of some kind.

[eFestivals]

Can't see it myself. WHU have plenty of forwards and need strengthening at the back. They'd be far more likely to sell Cole for cash rather than cash plus forward deal.

Also Liverpool haven't come back since expressing an interest months ago.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12876_6350504,00.html

[eFestivals]

So even more subjective then?

Perhaps, but considered more than objective enough for managers to place an awful lot of faith in how they're done.

If Hleb was so good then the question has to be why is he joining Birmingham on loan?

Ignore the time we're talking about and jump a few steps down the line why don't you....?

As Hleb was so good, Barca bought him!!!!

What happened after that is not relevant to him being rated as the Prem's most effective player, and which caused Barca to buy him.

[ampersand]

So even more subjective then?

Which was Hleb's game exactly, except he didn't scores goals or create assists like Lampard. If Hleb was so good then the question has to be why is he joining Birmingham on loan?

[TheGayTent]

You really are paranoid about these 'real' fans you go on about aren't you...perhaps you should attend some matches yourself. You might learn something and lose your paranoia...two birds one stone...

[Cardboard Box City]

Added to that is the fact that the professionals - managers, etc - place an awful lot of faith in those stats, using them for their own purchases. Which is how come Barca bought Hleb in the first place.