news & politics:discussion

[mattiloy]

3 hours ago, Ozanne said:

There’s no point replying to you as you aren’t discussing in good faith. You have made up something that I’ve said to drive your narrative so I won’t engage.

You were critical of people on the left for not backing Starmer were you not? So I ask simply, are you also critical of those in the centre that didn't back Labour in 2019? (a group which rumour has it also includes you yourself). If not, then its hypocrisy, plain and simple.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kurosagi said:

Agreed, but I personally would be happier if the anti-Corbyn kicking took a rest. For some of us old-timers it was the first time in decades that we've been able to vote labour without having to grimace and hold our noses.

Oh yeah I agree, it would be good if it could stop from both sides, it's pretty boring. Corbyn was the Labour leader that got my vote for the first time back in 2017 even though I didn't agree with his Brexit stance and had miss-givings over his leadership at the time. I was fully invested by the end of his leadership and was devastated that Labour lost the 2019 GE.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

You were critical of people on the left for not backing Starmer were you not? So I ask simply, are you also critical of those in the centre that didn't back Labour in 2019? (a group which rumour has it also includes you yourself). If not, then its hypocrisy, plain and simple.

Why do I have to go over my previous views again and again for you? Yes I am critical of how the centre treated Corbyn but that's in the past and we can't do anything about it now so I feel we should get behind the current leader to have a good chance of getting the Tories out of power (if that is your aim of course).

[fraybentos1]

10 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Oh yeah I agree, it would be good if it could stop from both sides, it's pretty boring. Corbyn was the Labour leader that got my vote for the first time back in 2017 even though I didn't agree with his Brexit stance and had miss-givings over his leadership at the time. I was fully invested by the end of his leadership and was devastated that Labour lost the 2019 GE.

You can't have been that invested if you voted lib dem in the 2019 eu elections

[mattiloy]

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

I guess the calculation, rightly or wrongly, might be that labour has a better chance of winning the seats it needs to win by shifting to the middle, and doing the patriotic flag waving thing. I don't know but I expect most of the left wing vote is from younger voters, graduates etc, who live in cities which are pretty safe labour seats anyway...whereas labour need to win in towns where population tends to be older and not so left wing?

I think to me it seems like he's gone much further than was necessary in all regards to be simply trying to win over the centre. He's made plenty decisions by now that most floating voters wouldn't give a shit about but piss off plenty on the left. He is just quite simply a new labour guy and the earlier part of his short political career was a lie and he lied to get into power. Or has been suggested, came into it as an empty vessel, and then surrounded himself with new labour baddies for whom conquering the left is borne of personal hatred and bitterness rather than strategy. But the decimation of the left will be a pyrrhic victory in the end.
 

 

6 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Why do I have to go over my previous views again and again for you? Yes I am critical of how the centre treated Corbyn but that's in the past and we can't do anything about it now so I feel we should get behind the current leader to have a good chance of getting the Tories out of power (if that is your aim of course).

Is it true that you voted lib dem in 2019?

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I think to me it seems like he's gone much further than was necessary in all regards to be simply trying to win over the centre. He's made plenty decisions by now that most floating voters wouldn't give a shit about but piss off plenty on the left. He is just quite simply a new labour guy and the earlier part of his short political career was a lie and he lied to get into power. Or has been suggested, came into it as an empty vessel, and then surrounded himself with new labour baddies for whom conquering the left is borne of personal hatred and bitterness rather than strategy. But the decimation of the left will be a pyrrhic victory in the end.

Maybe..but that's his strategy and at moment labour's polling pretty well.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe..but that's his strategy and at moment labour's polling pretty well.

Indeed. We currently have regular Labour leads in the polls, what isn't good about that? If replicated at a GE then the Tories would be out of office.

[SheffJeff]

23 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Is it true that you voted lib dem in 2019?

I've wondered this since it was first mentioned on here and through the sheer boredom of watching the Paw Patrol movie for the 45th time this year I've had a look at Ozannes twitter history and it does seem Frays got his wires crossed on this. Apologise Ozanne... I thought you were being a bit hypocritical with your views if you had voted lib dem in 2019 but it does seem not.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SheffJeff said:

I've wondered this since it was first mentioned on here and through the sheer boredom of watching the Paw Patrol movie for the 45th time this year I've had a look at Ozannes twitter history and it does seem Frays got his wires crossed on this. Apologise Ozanne... I thought you were being a bit hypocritical with your views if you had voted lib dem in 2019 but it does seem not.

 

Geez you must've been bored to go through that, I am offended you haven't pointed out a couple of my tweets that went viral 😉 

Joking aside, I remember that day so well. I was so nervous, could barely concentrate especially in the evening building up to the exit poll then was crushed come 22:01.

[fraybentos1]

8 minutes ago, SheffJeff said:

I've wondered this since it was first mentioned on here and through the sheer boredom of watching the Paw Patrol movie for the 45th time this year I've had a look at Ozannes twitter history and it does seem Frays got his wires crossed on this. Apologise Ozanne... I thought you were being a bit hypocritical with your views if you had voted lib dem in 2019 but it does seem not.

 

I said the EU election 

[fraybentos1]

11 minutes ago, SheffJeff said:

I've wondered this since it was first mentioned on here and through the sheer boredom of watching the Paw Patrol movie for the 45th time this year I've had a look at Ozannes twitter history and it does seem Frays got his wires crossed on this. Apologise Ozanne... I thought you were being a bit hypocritical with your views if you had voted lib dem in 2019 but it does seem not.

 

I said EU election 

[steviewevie]

25 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

I said EU election 

So fucking what. That election was all about Brexit.

Fuck off Fray.

Edited February 13, 2022 by steviewevie

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

So fucking what. That election was all about Brexit.

Fuck off Fray.

The guy's obsessed with me, it's so weird considering I haven't interacted with him in over a year.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The guy's obsessed with me, it's so weird considering I haven't interacted with him in over a year.

Yeah, and now he has your twitter handle.

[fraybentos1]

21 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

So fucking what. That election was all about Brexit.

Fuck off Fray.

Why are you so irate all the time lol.

also thought you had me on ignore... maybe it’s you who is obsessed with me?

pretty clear what my point is- ozanne’s love of Labour isn’t exactly to do with Particular policies it’s to do with him being obsessed with starmer 

[Guest]

Just now, steviewevie said:

Yeah, and now he has your twitter handle.

In all seriousness I've had him on ignore for over a year now, I don't interact with him, I have no idea why he's so bothered by me. 

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Why are you so irate all the time lol.

also thought you had me on ignore... maybe it’s you who is obsessed with me?

pretty clear what my point is- ozanne’s love of Labour isn’t exactly to do with Particular policies it’s to do with him being obsessed with starmer 

Lol.

Fucking dickhead.

[fraybentos1]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Lol.

Fucking dickhead.

Put me back on ignore you diddy

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

 

[Neil]

23 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Voters will be attracted to labour if they look like they are a serious alternative who can offer something better. If unions do split from labour, which I still think is unlikely overall, then it's all over, at least for time being. How do left/social-democrat parties in europe get their funding? How does the SNP?

the snp sell policies to rich people,  Brian Souter did well out of his donation.

[mattiloy]

15 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Geez you must've been bored to go through that, I am offended you haven't pointed out a couple of my tweets that went viral 😉 

Joking aside, I remember that day so well. I was so nervous, could barely concentrate especially in the evening building up to the exit poll then was crushed come 22:01.

Fairplay Ozanne. I take it back. You’re a party man through and through and evidently backed JC too, so respect for that. I don’t care about the EU election.

I’m not a party man, I voted Lib Dem in my first ever GE in 2010, like much of the youth vote swept along in clegg mania. They were the left wing ticket. And what damage it did to our faith in politicians. Judge them by their actions not their words. Should have remembered that when Starmer was running for Labour leader. Too late now. We are all shaped by our experiences are we not?

I even voted conservative in a council election in the early 2010s because the Labour dominated borough council relentlessly sold off the green belt to developers in my ward around the time (and in fact still does but nowadays there is an independent councillor to vote for which eases my cognitive dissonance at having to vote Tory).

So that’s the thing. I think most people are fairly pragmatic in politics, rather than party loyalists, now more than ever, as evidenced by the ‘red wall’ seats turning whilst Labour captured the likes of canterbury in 2017.

If you agree that changing direction from Corbynism is needed to attract centrists, you should also accept that you’re going to lose those votes on the left. So whether you think this is a careful calculation to get into office as@stevieweviesays, or you think it’s veering towards an unnecessarily vindictive, petty and personal campaign to stomp on the left which won’t yield the numbers they think it will, like me, you can’t just expect the left to stay in an abusive relationship.

Furthermore, I’d argue that new Labour put reformist and radical left wing politics back 2 generations and was totally detrimental to left wing ambitions thereto.

Like now, Starmer inferring Corbyn was supportive of Russia after Salisbury (which is a lie) means that the smears from the right and the right wing press are reiterated by those who the votership understand to be also on the left. It’s doubly damaging.

And now the right and the right wing press are smearing Starmer about this Savile thing and he doesn’t have a leg to stand on because he’s spent the last 2 years agreeing with them and undermining the erstwhile position of the Corbyn years - that the right wing press are malign organisations that trade in lies and smears. The left needs to be united in calling out this shit, not cheering it on. It’s so damaging in the long run. Blair should have dismantled the right wing press monopoly whilst he had the chance.

Edited February 14, 2022 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

34 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Fairplay Ozanne. I take it back. You’re a party man through and through and evidently backed JC too, so respect for that. I don’t care about the EU election.

I’m not a party man, I voted Lib Dem in my first ever GE in 2010, like much of the youth vote swept along in clegg mania. They were the left wing ticket. And what damage it did to our faith in politicians. Judge them by their actions not their words. Should have remembered that when Starmer was running for Labour leader. Too late now. We are all shaped by our experiences are we not?

I even voted conservative in a council election in the early 2010s because the Labour dominated borough council relentlessly sold off the green belt to developers in my ward around the time (and in fact still does but nowadays there is an independent councillor to vote for which eases my cognitive dissonance at having to vote Tory).

So that’s the thing. I think most people are fairly pragmatic in politics, rather than party loyalists, now more than ever, as evidenced by the ‘red wall’ seats turning whilst Labour captured the likes of canterbury in 2017.

If you agree that changing direction from Corbynism is needed to attract centrists, you should also accept that you’re going to lose those votes on the left. So whether you think this is a careful calculation to get into office as@stevieweviesays, or you think it’s veering towards an unnecessarily vindictive, petty and personal campaign to stomp on the left which won’t yield the numbers they think it will, like me, you can’t just expect the left to stay in an abusive relationship.

Furthermore, I’d argue that new Labour put reformist and radical left wing politics back 2 generations and was totally detrimental to left wing ambitions thereto.

Like now, Starmer inferring Corbyn was supportive of Russia after Salisbury (which is a lie) means that the smears from the right and the right wing press are reiterated by those who the votership understand to be also on the left. It’s doubly damaging.

And now the right and the right wing press are smearing Starmer about this Savile thing and he doesn’t have a leg to stand on because he’s spent the last 2 years agreeing with them and undermining the erstwhile position of the Corbyn years - that the right wing press are malign organisations that trade in lies and smears. The left needs to be united in calling out this shit, not cheering it on. It’s so damaging in the long run. Blair should have dismantled the right wing press monopoly whilst he had the chance.

new Labour only came about because labour kept losing...and rightly or wrongly Blair/Brown accepted Thatcherism had won and that they would not interfere with capitalism, keep deregulating those city banks but use some of that extra cash for public services. Labour had been out of power for 18 years, it's a long time.

Edited February 14, 2022 by steviewevie

[Neil]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

new Labour only came about because labour kept losing

it was more than that, that labours version of left had become discredited, by how it danced to the union's tune.

[steviewevie]

Starmer ❤️ Unions