Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

 

 

when's Her Highness releasing her own impact reports, for indy?

At least DD delivered something.

 

[zahidf]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

when even Peston can't be consistent with what he says in less than 200 characters, what's DD done wrong?

BTW, not idea if it's true, but DD claims he never used the words "impact assessments". If he didn't, he's already half-way to being cleared about this. 

Whether he did or didn't, half the problem around this issue is what opponents self-invented for what was in the supposed reports. 

All the stuff he said is on record. 

Are you genuinely saying he wasnt misleading or lying to parliament? Or that he was and that sort of thing is ok?

Either we allow that sort of thing now or we dont.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

All the stuff he said is on record. 

yep it is. And if that record doesn't include the words "impact assessments" he's half way to being cleared. What I said.

 

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Are you genuinely saying he wasnt misleading or lying to parliament? Or that he was and that sort of thing is ok?

care to say where I even hinted at that, to cause you the need to ask?

 

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Either we allow that sort of thing now or we dont.

Jezza got a million+ votes by lyingly saying "I'll deal with it". Is he going to be strung up too, or is that only for your enemies? (I've got a long list of other Jez lies and misrepresentations, if you're needing them ).

We've always allowed bullshit from politicians. Whether or not DD has stepped over the line into the 'not allowed' we'll have to see, but there's absolutely no doubt that the likes of you have bullshitted yourself about the supposed "impact assessments" as much as DD might have bullshitted you.

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yep it is. And if that record doesn't include the words "impact assessments" he's half way to being cleared. What I said.

 

care to say where I even hinted at that, to cause you the need to ask?

 

Jezza got a million+ votes by lyingly saying "I'll deal with it". Is he going to be strung up too, or is that only for your enemies? (I've got a long list of other Jez lies and misrepresentations, if you're needing them ).

We've always allowed bullshit from politicians. Whether or not DD has stepped over the line into the 'not allowed' we'll have to see, but there's absolutely no doubt that the likes of you have bullshitted yourself about the supposed "impact assessments" as much as DD might have bullshitted you.

Being misleading in an election is different to being misleading in parliament in a minesterial context.

 

Here are 7 times you could say he said it

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/7-times-tory-david-davis-11649452

 

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Here are 7 times you could say he said it

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/7-times-tory-david-davis-11649452

yep, you could say, if you make it up for yourself, which better worded as "lie about it".

So DD is right, if that's the evidence. He never said "impact assessments" and that's an invention.

DD talked about "sectoral analysis" and "regulatory assessments" ... which is what I suggested a few days back was what they were likely to be about.

After all, we've decided to leave the EU, and that's not dependent on whether or not the impact onto businesses is bad or not. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[ThomThomDrum]

30 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that if "one Ireland" is so very important to Ireland, that Ireland should be acting for that 'one Ireland' and not only for itself?

It's an outrageous idea, I know.

You are telling me that I expect the Republic of Ireland to act in the interest of a 'one Ireland' (a concept not fully defined to me BTW, but I assume its some peace and harmony, living with thy neighbor idea and not a United Ireland?) and that I dont expect the Republic to act in the interest of itself? Is that what you are saying?

If it is then no, that is not an expectation of mine. I expect all parties to be coming to the table out of self interest and if that self interest can be alligned to whats in the interest of others then bang, you got an agreement. 

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Foster is pissed off with the "even if no deal" part, which is hardly a surprise.

May was a fool to include it. It's quite possibly going to make things intractable, cos Ireland probably won't now accept anything less and the DUP won't accept it.

Well from what I hear this morning Dublin/the EU are willing to review the text and wording used in the last draft agreement with looking to alter to something more palatable to the bigots and they are even willing to try to have something agreed to were certain aspects of the agreement would work differently on either side of the 'border'....... Sounds like that Dublin and the EU are being totally unreasonable and stubborn through this process  

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

You are telling me that I expect the Republic of Ireland to act in the interest of a 'one Ireland' (a concept not fully defined to me BTW, but I assume its some peace and harmony, living with thy neighbor idea and not a United Ireland?) and that I dont expect the Republic to act in the interest of itself? Is that what you are saying?

With regard to NI, yes - if it's so very important to Ireland that the current border situation with NI is maintained.

If Ireland wants to act in only its own interests, it's interests in NI are secondary, and the decisions for NI should be left to those for who it's primary.

(It's slightly different for the DUP, as they're not the govt trying to represent more than just their own party wants)

All your attitude is really making clear is that the 'one Ireland' idea is fake as far as Ireland is concerned. It's about Ireland wanting a say over NI for Ireland's benefit.  

Sovereignty - you know, acting in one's own interests - standardly says "fuck off" to that, *exactly* as Ireland would if it had to submit to what NI or the UK wanted.

 

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If it is then no, that is not an expectation of mine. I expect all parties to be coming to the table out of self interest and if that self interest can be alligned to whats in the interest of others then bang, you got an agreement. 

You're allowed that expectation, but it shows the one Ireland thing to be a crock of shit from Ireland's side.

Which makes Ireland the same self-serving c**ts as the DUP ultimately. Not trying to do the best thing for the island of Ireland (which the GFA is about), merely trying to the best thing for themselves.

 

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Well from what I hear this morning Dublin/the EU are willing to review the text and wording used in the last draft agreement with looking to alter to something more palatable to the bigots and they are even willing to try to have something agreed to were certain aspects of the agreement would work differently on either side of the 'border'.......

I hope Ireland will be prepared to let the "even if no deal" part drop then. Else the hardest border that leo threatens is what you'll be getting, i reckon.

 

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Sounds like that Dublin and the EU are being totally unreasonable and stubborn through this process  

I didn't say that.

I did point out that Ireland played with words to it's own advantage, and didn't give a fuck about those words in the place those words were about - which is not the mutuality of the GFA, which is supposedly the thing driving everything.

I believe your opposition leader made this exact point to Leo a day or two back.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Leo's learning, I'm pleased to see.

Overnight, the Irish prime minister, Leo Varadkar, struck a similar note, saying that regulatory alignment did not have to apply to everything, merely areas of “north-south” activity.

[ThomThomDrum]

The 'one Ireland' thing is a crock of shite from everyones side Neil. Everyone enters into agreements and deals from a selfish POV and try to get the most that benefits them while not pissing off the crazys too much that any violence will kick off. You are being naive if you think that anyone is thinking in terms of 'one Ireland' first and foremost. . Are the DUP? No fucking way (they would rip up the GFA), Are the UK? No fucking way. They would love rid of the 6 counties. So why should Ireland primarily think in those terms? Ireland will do whats best for Ireland, the EU whats best for the EU, The DUP whats best for a bunch of nut jobs and the rest of the UK whats best for the rest of the UK while at the same time trying to get to an agreement between each other. Tough work but thats what it is.

BTW its not simply about Ireland having a say in NI for shits and giggles. Its about whats best for Ireland socially and economically and no border is best for Ireland in both cases. What the EU and Ireland are trying to do is prevent the border being a bargaining chip thrown up deep into phase 2 talks. Makes sense. Its self interest.   Just like most politics

[Wooderson]

"One Ireland" isnt a commonly used phrase to my knowledge. Quick google search confirms this.

Im sure its used amongst you and your mates Neil. Just not in Ireland itself.

 

[Wooderson]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Leo's learning, I'm pleased to see.

 

 

Learned that UK leadership is the worst in living memory, 100%

[eFestivals]

40 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

The 'one Ireland' thing is a crock of shite from everyones side Neil.

Then it ceases to be so important that it needs to be any meaningful part of a UK/EU deal.

 

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Everyone enters into agreements and deals from a selfish POV and try to get the most that benefits them while not pissing off the crazys too much that any violence will kick off.

Nope, that wasn't the rationale behind the GFA.  It was the selfish POV that caused the need for it in the first place.

 

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You are being naive if you think that anyone is thinking in terms of 'one Ireland' first and foremost. .

Yet there everyone is, saying it's first and foremost.

 

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Are the DUP?

The DUP are a single interest group for all of the while there's no NI govt.

The Irish govt are not meant to be a single interest group towards the GFA, just as the NI (& UK) govt is not. They're all meant to take a view towards all of the people involved.

 

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Are the UK? No fucking way.

The UK is trying to serve the GFA while also serve the bigger constituency of the UK which is external to everything of the GFA, and those two don't necessarily align. The bigger constituency of the UK will almost-always win out in that one.

Ultimately the UK govt will go what's good for the UK govt, which means that NI might be supported or abandoned (as the only options). That might be a shit back onto the GFA*, but almost no one would expect it any other way, ultimately, otherwise it would be the tail wagging the dog.

(* i'll point out, the failed agreement earlier in the week had the UK abandoning the DUP's wants in favour of the GFA, so they're happy in principle to sell-out the DUP to favour the GFA [and the other stuff that might come via that, of course. It's not altruism]).

 

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They would love rid of the 6 counties.

Not really true. If it was, it would have been shaken off already.

 

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So why should Ireland primarily think in those terms?

It doesn't have to.

But if it doesn't, why the bullshit about the GFA being so very important? You just want an open border cos it's good for Ireland, and fuck all to do with the GFA.

 

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Ireland will do whats best for Ireland, the EU whats best for the EU, The DUP whats best for a bunch of nut jobs and the rest of the UK whats best for the rest of the UK while at the same time trying to get to an agreement between each other. Tough work but thats what it is.

That's not what the GFA is.

And Ireland has used the justification of what the GFA is for the position it's adopted.

And now you're saying that's a crock of shit. Which is fine. There's now a wiser world, and a world that I'm sure will act differently if it knows Ireland's true attitudes.

 

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BTW its not simply about Ireland having a say in NI for shits and giggles. Its about whats best for Ireland socially and economically and no border is best for Ireland in both cases. What the EU and Ireland are trying to do is prevent the border being a bargaining chip thrown up deep into phase 2 talks. Makes sense. Its self interest.   Just like most politics

But the same no border is no less best for the UK mainland and mainland Europe.

If what you say there is correct, the UK is guaranteed a spiffing deal with the EU, of everything it wants. 

But that's not really how it is, is it?

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

"One Ireland" isnt a commonly used phrase to my knowledge. Quick google search confirms this.

it's an easy way of summarising what the no border part is about - of ireland working to one set of regs in the necessary areas.

If you want to suggest an alternative easy wording, i'm all ears.

 

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Im sure its used amongst you and your mates Neil. Just not in Ireland itself.

It's amazing how so many people can get so many things wrong when talking about Ireland.

Edited December 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Wooderson said:

Learned that UK leadership is the worst in living memory, 100%

it might be, but if he wants what he wants, he has to delve into that shit without shitting in there himself.

[Wooderson]

“All-Ireland” “32 County Ireland” both more commonly used than “One Ireland”, which sounds weird.

[Wooderson]

Btw I’m no fan of Leo. He’s a bad Tory. I don’t envy him having to deal with morons like Arlene and Tess.

[ThomThomDrum]

The GFA is hidden behind so certain sides can push their agendas Neil. Can you not see that?  Folk think "can I twist what I want into maintaining the GFA"? "If so then I have a chance of getting what I want as it sounds as if im coming from a moral high ground"............Tis a good political tactic IMO and its happening in front of you. 

And the GFA was very much born out of self interest BTW. It let the unionists believe it shored up the union and it allowed nationalists believe there is a legitimate path ahead of them toward a United Ireland. They all agreed to it because they all thought they were getting what they wanted and sure as an added bonus wouldnt it go toward stopping the crazys going crazy?

The UK could not shake off the 6 counties if, firstly it knew where they where! and secondly it actually tried. You underestimate the grip those lads have on yer nipple. Its the UKs stink and its not one that would be easily washed away and accepted by another........ Do you think everyone in the Republic is a nationalist Neil? Naivety in the extreme if you do 

 

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

The GFA is hidden behind so certain sides can push their agendas Neil.

if that's true, the eu are about to roll over on a trade deal, then.

Which is why i don't think it's true. 

 

9 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

And the GFA was very much born out of self interest BTW. It let the unionists believe it shored up the union and it allowed nationalists believe there is a legitimate path ahead of them toward a United Ireland. They all agreed to it because they all thought they were getting what they wanted and sure as an added bonus wouldnt it go toward stopping the crazys going crazy?

nah. I disagree with that. The only self interest was everyone wanting peace, and what they'd give up for it. Classic compromise.

What it put in place were structures and ideas that were meant to have people take a "more than just my interests" view, because "my interests" takes everyone back to the same bad place.

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, ThomThomDrum said:

The UK could not shake off the 6 counties if, firstly it knew where they where! and secondly it actually tried. You underestimate the grip those lads have on yer nipple. Its the UKs stink and its not one that would be easily washed away and accepted by another........ Do you think everyone in the Republic is a nationalist Neil? Naivety in the extreme if you do 

I'm well aware that a majority of Catholics in NI are currently in favour of remaining in the UK. I'm also fairly well read with various aspects of Irish history (including Carson/Bonar Law), tho wouldn't claim perfect knowledge by a long shot.

But yeah, they could be shaken off. Lesser financial support. Less committed words. Move a few UK-wide institutions from there. Put the writing on the wall. Etc, etc, etc.
(and if we'd done that pre-GFA, you'd be stuck with them :P)

And we're certainly not addicted to them. It's the only part of the UK with a written right of secession, for instance.

[zahidf]

 

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

What a shit article, and i thought you'd know better zahid.

ECHR isn't an EU institution, and the UK has made clear it intends remaining as a member.

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

What a shit article, and i thought you'd know better zahid.

ECHR isn't an EU institution, and the UK has made clear it intends remaining as a member.

yeah hands up, my mistake!

[eFestivals]

Brexit deal done, part 1.

Which is more progress than just about anyone expected.

It'll be interesting to see what's in the text.

[Wooderson]

Lol

[Wooderson]

What a mess, Neil.