Brexit Schmexit

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

nope. They might pretend that they're negotiating as equals, but the reality is that the power is relative to size.

Now, there's a thing, eh?

One sides negotiating position is being described today as “ pure illusion “. 

A bit like your understanding of the word “ devolved “ :-)

In fairness your general point is accurate. When the latest Brexit plan was hatched out in the country retreat there wasn’t even the “illusion” of pretending that the views of the jocks or Welsh matter a toss. Atleast we know our place.

Before you start, I conceded yesterday that our 32/32 result counts for zilch so the Tories will push on regardless.

[pink_triangle]

8 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

 

Before you start, I conceded yesterday that our 32/32 result counts for zilch so the Tories will push on regardless.

The tories can't push on regardless. They don't all think the same and don't have the numbers to ignore those who think different.

[Comfy Bean]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The tories can't push on regardless. They don't all think the same and don't have the numbers to ignore those who think different.

I agree with the 2nd bit.

[zahidf]

 

[eFestivals]

21 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

A bit like your understanding of the word “ devolved “ :-)

I'm not commenting on 'devolved'.

I'm commenting on the conflicting views of Sturgeon on the benefits of common standards and a single market.

(where a = good and b = bad, where the only difference is nationality. Wonder how that pans out with a rational and logical reading of UK law? )

Why are you too stupid to understand what I'm commenting about, or why are you so duplicitous that you have to pretend I'm talking about something else?

 

21 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

In fairness your general point is accurate. When the latest Brexit plan was hatched out in the country retreat there wasn’t even the “illusion” of pretending that the views of the jocks or Welsh matter a toss. Atleast we know our place.

At least you know how to play a good lie, yep. 

Why do you think you can play fantasy, and why do you think Scots are so stupid they'll fall for your lies?
(hey, perhaps you'd even be right about that).

 

21 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

Before you start, I conceded yesterday that our 32/32 result counts for zilch so the Tories will push on regardless.

But you don't. You've already played your lie just above to prove it.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

and yet, the truth can be that both can be aiming to damage national interests.

And in fact, that's what it is.

Tho with the SNP doubled-down. If they don't get to damage it by opposing the tories, they already have the next plan lined up. Their very remit is that damage.

[pink_triangle]

Each SNP mp has the same voting power as each English or Welsh MP. I hope on some issues they can work with labour and tory rebels to build a majority.

[zahidf]

 

[eFestivals]

Except that's not true zahid.

Scotland doesn't currently have those powers - they are with the EU - and so cannot be protecting what it already has.

[russycarps]

Very positive move by Corbyn I reckon, should widen the split in the tory party nicely.

The specific idea is complete nonsense and displays a fundamental lack of understanding of the EU of course, but it ratchets up the pressure on the tories and perhaps that cretin may will realise that pandering to the lunatic ultras will see the tories lose what little control they currently have.

As for wee niccy krankie's idiotic ramblings, they are completely and utterly irrelevant. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, russycarps said:

As for wee niccy krankie's idiotic ramblings, they are completely and utterly irrelevant. 

yet true, all the same.

Sturgeon says Corbyn's Brexit stance 'very similar to May's 'have cake and eat it' approach

apparently - so a scotsman told me - it's evil to speak the truth about what Jez said, so i guess that's the end of his SNP voting.

[eFestivals]

Me, I reckon the tories will now be seriously considering letting Jez have no.10 as well as the shitty-stick called brexit.

Cos Jez can fail to deliver too, because it's not in his control just like it's not in May's control ... and a Jez-fail is likely to end up as a public endorsement for May's hard brexit.

The problem there are the timelines. If there was unlimited time I'd start putting money on that happening, but with limited time there's all sorts of extra problems in the mix, which ends up favouring the Mogg-tories. They only have to sit tight till next March and they've got their win, all enabled by Jez whipping for the a50 vote.

[russycarps]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yet true, all the same.

Sturgeon says Corbyn's Brexit stance 'very similar to May's 'have cake and eat it' approach

apparently - so a scotsman told me - it's evil to speak the truth about what Jez said, so i guess that's the end of his SNP voting.

Yeah, we have to hope it's all part of jezzas plan to divide the tories though. He cant seriously believe the eu would agree to his scheme, because if he does then all the leaders are as clueless as each other, and we really are doomed.

 

 

[russycarps]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Me, I reckon the tories will now be seriously considering letting Jez have no.10 as well as the shitty-stick called brexit.

Cos Jez can fail to deliver too, because it's not in his control just like it's not in May's control ... and a Jez-fail is likely to end up as a public endorsement for May's hard brexit.

The problem there are the timelines. If there was unlimited time I'd start putting money on that happening, but with limited time there's all sorts of extra problems in the mix, which ends up favouring the Mogg-tories. They only have to sit tight till next March and they've got their win, all enabled by Jez whipping for the a50 vote.

well I do hope you're wrong there!

Just need to sit tight tight and see the eu's treaty on wednesday. Things might come to a head after that.

[zahidf]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Me, I reckon the tories will now be seriously considering letting Jez have no.10 as well as the shitty-stick called brexit.

Cos Jez can fail to deliver too, because it's not in his control just like it's not in May's control ... and a Jez-fail is likely to end up as a public endorsement for May's hard brexit.

The problem there are the timelines. If there was unlimited time I'd start putting money on that happening, but with limited time there's all sorts of extra problems in the mix, which ends up favouring the Mogg-tories. They only have to sit tight till next March and they've got their win, all enabled by Jez whipping for the a50 vote.

So.... Jez should support May on the no CU point?

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Yeah, we have to hope it's all part of jezzas plan to divide the tories though. He cant seriously believe the eu would agree to his scheme, because if he does then all the leaders are as clueless as each other, and we really are doomed.

but "his plan to divide the tories" is only something meaningful if it brings about the collapse of the govt ... which then (maybe) leaves Jez holding the shitty brexit stick which you've just pointed out he couldn't deliver on.

So I'm struggling to see where there's a meaningful advantage here for Labour, even tho there's now a distinctly different plan to the tories.

[zahidf]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but "his plan to divide the tories" is only something meaningful if it brings about the collapse of the govt ... which then (maybe) leaves Jez holding the shitty brexit stick which you've just pointed out he couldn't deliver on.

So I'm struggling to see where there's a meaningful advantage here for Labour, even tho there's now a distinctly different plan to the tories.

The opposition should always be in a position to want to be in power. Otherwise, whats the point?

And the Tories saying they dont want to be in charge of Brexit after it was there idea wont help them!

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

So.... Jez should support May on the no CU point?

Nope. 

Jez is in a bind whatever he does. I thought we were all agreed on that, long ago?

I'm merely pointing out that it's hard to see where Jez or Labour get an advantage via the clear difference that now exists.

If he succeeds in bringing down May's govt via this then all that really does is puts him in May's impossible shoes (Jez in high heels, now there's a thought i wish I'd not had ).

Anyone with half a brain can see it's the same cake-and-eat-it that May gave up on as impossible for the EU to grant - so Jez is going to have to move position again (if he were to get into no.10).

Which would only put him in an even greater bind than now. Just think how a compare with the speech he's just given would go when he's moved to a new position.  What's he going to abandon in taking that new position? The UK's 'say' or jobs or his policy programme or a big EU bill, etc, etc, etc?

Brexit is a crock of shit for anyone, not just the tories.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

The opposition should always be in a position to want to be in power. Otherwise, whats the point?

PMSL :lol:

That's the line you've argued against constantly.

I'm pleased to see The Brainlight Faithful finally start to wise up politically, but you only have to read Owen Jones words on Corbyn's speech to see it's not really any wising up, it's just more of the same brainless follow-my-leader.

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

And the Tories saying they dont want to be in charge of Brexit after it was there idea wont help them!

It wasn't their idea. :rolleyes:

It's a good job that the electorate is more switched on than you are, else we'd really be in trouble.

[lost]

 

 

[russycarps]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Nope. 

Jez is in a bind whatever he does. I thought we were all agreed on that, long ago?

I'm merely pointing out that it's hard to see where Jez or Labour get an advantage via the clear difference that now exists.

If he succeeds in bringing down May's govt via this then all that really does is puts him in May's impossible shoes (Jez in high heels, now there's a thought i wish I'd not had ).

Anyone with half a brain can see it's the same cake-and-eat-it that May gave up on as impossible for the EU to grant - so Jez is going to have to move position again (if he were to get into no.10).

Which would only put him in an even greater bind than now. Just think how a compare with the speech he's just given would go when he's moved to a new position.  What's he going to abandon in taking that new position? The UK's 'say' or jobs or his policy programme or a big EU bill, etc, etc, etc?

Brexit is a crock of shit for anyone, not just the tories.

Most people dont have a clue about the differences between the single market, customs union, the EU, the EFTA, EEA etc. If his speech isnt met by howls of outrage from across the rabid leave voting regions, then maybe he can push things a bit further. Maybe this is just baby steps towards a commitment to stay in the SM, or some version of it under a different name. Or even to joining the EFTA (if they'd have us!).

I'm just glad he's doing anything at all. Of course you are probably right and there is no strategy at all apart from to stir up the tories. But at least he's given me a drip of hope.

 

 

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Most people dont have a clue about the differences between the single market, customs union, the EU, the EFTA, EEA etc. If his speech isnt met by howls of outrage from across the rabid leave voting regions, then maybe he can push things a bit further. Maybe this is just baby steps towards a commitment to stay in the SM, or some version of it under a different name. Or even to joining the EFTA (if they'd have us!).

I'm just glad he's doing anything at all. Of course you are probably right and there is no strategy at all apart from to stir up the tories. But at least he's given me a drip of hope.

the press is better today, even if the policy is no different.

But it wasn't so much the various EU options I meant from today's speech, but all of the stuff he said alongside it. He promised a Boris brexit bonus, he's promised jobs, training, investment (the normal jez world on a stick).

The way he laid it out, all of those things are what justifies his EU position.
(which is fair enough [if really true ]).

But I've pointed out he's going to have to shift position - so what of those would he *have* to shit on (because he's justified them, see above) when he changes position again?

But whatever, at least he's now got a different policy to the tories (even tho it was the tories changing that caused the difference), and that's a good thing.

(But that thing of putting up Starmer to bullshit has got to stop)

[zahidf]

27 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the press is better today, even if the policy is no different.

But it wasn't so much the various EU options I meant from today's speech, but all of the stuff he said alongside it. He promised a Boris brexit bonus, he's promised jobs, training, investment (the normal jez world on a stick).

The way he laid it out, all of those things are what justifies his EU position.
(which is fair enough [if really true ]).

But I've pointed out he's going to have to shift position - so what of those would he *have* to shit on (because he's justified them, see above) when he changes position again?

But whatever, at least he's now got a different policy to the tories (even tho it was the tories changing that caused the difference), and that's a good thing.

(But that thing of putting up Starmer to bullshit has got to stop)

Thats almost complimentary of Jez...

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Thats almost complimentary of Jez...

some sort of detailed position is better than fluffy means-everything-to-anyone bullshit. It's just a shame that the more detailed is just more detailed bullshit, worthy of the worst brexiteer.

I've always accepted that a brexit policy is a hard one for Labour to have to call, but it's something they were always going to have to call.

[zahidf]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

some sort of detailed position is better than fluffy means-everything-to-anyone bullshit. It's just a shame that the more detailed is just more detailed bullshit, worthy of the worst brexiteer.

I've always accepted that a brexit policy is a hard one for Labour to have to call, but it's something they were always going to have to call.

id say theyve suceeded in putting the govt in a tough spot. i dont see a way out for May other than caving in on a customs union point

Edited February 26, 2018 by zahidf