Extra security

[chatty]

8 minutes ago, Mardy said:

So no passport, no driving license = no entry to Glastonbury? We only want good upright citizens? Dear God, no. the whole ethos and history of the festival is built around those on the fringes of society. Why would you want you to block all that creativity, all that exuberance from coming? That's the very heart and soul of the festival. 

Anyone who hasnt got some sort of identification is a dodge pot anyway, who would it be discluding?  The exact same people can still go. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by chatty

[JayBalls]

2 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Approx 30% of pensioners do not have DL or passports - what other accepted ID's are there or do we just exclude those of a certain age?

Bus pass?

[Chawk]

10 hours ago, MetaKate said:

Also, if they did manage to get a ticket, they agreed to the pledge. "Love the farm, leave no trace" 

THE CONTRACT IS BINDING. 

i am cautious of joking around this subject too much, but equally I'm not sure encouraging terrorists to 'leave no trace' is wise

[Keithy]

29 minutes ago, chatty said:

Yeah but its not just the once - 9/11, 7/7, Paris, Belgium, the Lee Rigby killers, Madrid, Omar Manteen etc are all examples of them knowing the asailants in advance of the attacks. Pretty much every attack, they already know the perpetrators. 

They knew the perpetrators but up to the moment of the attack, the perpetrators hadn't actually broken any law. So what can the security services do? Unless you want them to go down the road of internment?

The best that very skilled and experienced security services can do is look at the threats and make a judgement call on who to monitor more closely and intercept when they establish an attack is imminent as then they will have sufficicent evidence to arrest and prosecute under terrorism laws for preparing an attack.

That is not a foolproof science so occasionally people will slip through the net. That's the price we pay for living in a free and democratic society.

[chatty]

8 minutes ago, Keithy said:

They knew the perpetrators but up to the moment of the attack, the perpetrators hadn't actually broken any law. So what can the security services do? Unless you want them to go down the road of internment?

The best that very skilled and experienced security services can do is look at the threats and make a judgement call on who to monitor more closely and intercept when they establish an attack is imminent as then they will have sufficicent evidence to arrest and prosecute under terrorism laws for preparing an attack.

That is not a foolproof science so occasionally people will slip through the net. That's the price we pay for living in a free and democratic society.

You change the law to outlaw any form of extremism and come down hard on it. Anyone preaching hatred, affiliating woth terrorist organisations and condoning terrorism become illegal with the threat or jail and/or deportation. 

[chatty]

30 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Approx 30% of pensioners do not have DL or passports - what other accepted ID's are there or do we just exclude those of a certain age?

They can just, you know, get one. 

[Keithy]

Just now, chatty said:

You change the law to outlaw any form of extremism and come down hard on it. Anyone preaching hatred, affiliating woth terrorist organisations and condoning terrorism become illegal with the threat or jail and/or deportation. 

So you would have jailed everyone who supported Nelson Mandela and the ANC in the 1980's?

[Raincatcher]

I just can't see any potential terrorists going through the bother of trying to get a ticket in the first place! It's not as if the Manchester attacker bought a ticket to the gig at the MEN. The most obvious target at Glastonbury would be the queue and any more searches at the gates would only make this more of a target, both to remove the bag search from the equation and due to the increased size of the queue if more searches are implemented.

Quite simply, there are many easier options when it comes to something to attack. 

[scaryclaireyfairy]

16 minutes ago, chatty said:

They can just, you know, get one. 

You say that like those things are free.

[Franky]

11 hours ago, Waapster said:

Well I got it. There's a clue in the second paragraph.

Security at Glastonbury will be advanced. They will be members of the security group that meets regularly for all major UK events - Wembley, Wimbledon, Chelsea flower Show etc. Easy enough to scan submitted photos against watch lists (where photos are available) although I doubt this happens. More likely, in my view, is on site cameras checking photos against a database. That really is old and cheap tech.

However, the biggest defence we have is intelligence led policing. GCHQ listen to and watch vast amounts of communications. People of interest discussing the FA cup final or the flower show or Glastonbury should ring alarm bells. Manchester shows us this is not foolproof but it is bound to be underway.

And don't be spooked. An attack is unlikely but where they do happen, even with terrible consequences, the vast majority of people in the venue escape unharmed.

This ! 

There is an old saying. We have to be lucky every time they only have to be lucky once. 

IF a total unknown decided they wanted to launch an attack (anywhere now, not specifically Glastonbury) we would have to get very lucky in order to stop it. Usually a report of unusual activity from a friend or family member. 

IF a known person of interest wanted to launch an attack there is less chance of success and that about it I'm afraid. 

Short of putting in place some of the very extreme messures previously mentioned which nobody wants, there really isn't much that can be done. 

[fur_q]

People seriously suggesting life sentences/deportation for having the wrong 'views' it's amazing how little it takes for some people to go full fasc. 

 

Shocking and terible as the as the recent events in Manchester and Westminster are terrorism is still an incredibly rare occurrence in Europe and statistically more people will be killed on British roads over the next 7 days than the number who lost their lives in Manchester. 

[chatty]

31 minutes ago, Keithy said:

So you would have jailed everyone who supported Nelson Mandela and the ANC in the 1980's?

Sure, they were terrorist murderers. 

[chatty]

18 minutes ago, scaryclaireyfairy said:

You say that like those things are free.

Im sure id cards are about ten quid. Its about 40 for a licence and passports are expensive but still 90 for ten years aibt too bad. 

Im not sure those prices are enough of an argument when your talking about people willing spend what is anything from likely 500 to 1000 to go to a five day music festival overall. 

[chatty]

12 minutes ago, fur_q said:

People seriously suggesting life sentences/deportation for having the wrong 'views' it's amazing how little it takes for some people to go full fasc. 

 

Shocking and terible as the as the recent events in Manchester and Westminster are terrorism is still an incredibly rare occurrence in Europe and statistically more people will be killed on British roads over the next 7 days than the number who lost their lives in Manchester. 

How is it facist. Their views are to murder people, its completely rational. When people are defending peoples rights to openly apply for murderers then youve lost the plot. 

Comparing people dying in accidental collisions and accidents to people acrively seeking to murder people doesnt make much sense either. Sure, people die of allsorts of things everyday, bit different when its intentional. 

If however, you talking about people killed in accidents by drunks etc then I have the same authoritarian view that they should be severly punished. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by chatty

[chatty]

As for bag searches you can have tiered gating. They may already have as I think a lot of festivals do. First gate, tickets in, quicker and swifter and seperates the people who are attending with those who arent and then second gate is the bag check where only people with tickets have access but a randomer cant just walk up and have access to the larger queue. 

Pretty sure these are already in pkace as most events though. 

[scaryclaireyfairy]

8 minutes ago, chatty said:

Im sure id cards are about ten quid. Its about 40 for a licence and passports are expensive but still 90 for ten years aibt too bad. 

Im not sure those prices are enough of an argument when your talking about people willing spend what is anything from likely 500 to 1000 to go to a five day music festival overall. 

I don't think it right that anyone who doesn't have those forms of id - and doesn't need them to have a perfectly above-board existence - should have to pay anything at all merely to go to a festival.  It's pointless when anyone with the right amount of money can get same on the black market and circumvent the system anyway.

The festival DID insist on photo ID in '04 (and possibly '05). The natives were not happy for the reasons I've outlined above.  Then the photo tickets came.

[fur_q]

19 minutes ago, chatty said:

Sure, they were terrorist murderers. 

Just so we're clear you believe that during the 1980s the government should have impisoned the Archbishop of Canterbury and Annie Lenox for life

 

 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

1 hour ago, chatty said:

 not so easy to get fake id that stands up when being properly checked. 

It is easy. Let's face it, even if it weren't easy but was possible, these people are going to have the resources and the contacts to get these things sorted.

As an aside, I have a friend who is British but born of Pakistani parents. He was staying in the Basque Country when ETA were active. For reason only known to himself he put his passport and all his money under the bedside side table in his hotel. He came back from being out and his passport was gone, but the money was left there. The staff with access to the keys just denied ever looking under the bedside table. Nothing he could do but tell the authorities that his passport was stolen. I suspect that somebody very naughty stole that passport. It was worth far more to them than the money. Think about it - a UK passport holder with an Asian looking bloke's photo on it. OK, that was then, and passports now have added security features, but the counterfeiters keep up with these changes. 

[Raincatcher]

5 minutes ago, chatty said:

As for bag searches you can have tiered gating. They may already have as I think a lot of festivals do. First gate, tickets in, quicker and swifter and seperates the people who are attending with those who arent and then second gate is the bag check where only people with tickets have access but a randomer cant just walk up and have access to the larger queue. 

Pretty sure these are already in pkace as most events though. 

The amount of space needed for the existing queueing system would realistically need to be replicated inside the fence and you would need a huge amount of extra well trained staff to introduce a tiered system. Bag searches would take longer than ticket access so you would be left with huge bottlenecks. Wednesday would be a logistical nightmare for all involved, staff and punters. The difficulty getting a ticket and the fence are protection enough, as I said before, there are much, much easier targets.

[chatty]

15 minutes ago, fur_q said:

Just so we're clear you believe that during the 1980s the government should have impisoned the Archbishop of Canterbury and Annie Lenox for life

 

 

Nope but it doesnt take away that the MK were a murderous terrorist organisation. Comparing 1980 South Aftrica to 2017 UK doesnt really work as a direct comparison so going that route aint really going to make foe much of a debate. 

Im not quite sure what you argument is but if Annie Lennox and the Arch bishop of Canterbury were setting about joining a terror org and condoning terrorism then yeah they are c**ts and should be institutionalized for mental health issues. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by chatty

[chatty]

9 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

It is easy. Let's face it, even if it weren't easy but was possible, these people are going to have the resources and the contacts to get these things sorted.

As an aside, I have a friend who is British but born of Pakistani parents. He was staying in the Basque Country when ETA were active. For reason only known to himself he put his passport and all his money under the bedside side table in his hotel. He came back from being out and his passport was gone, but the money was left there. The staff with access to the keys just denied ever looking under the bedside table. Nothing he could do but tell the authorities that his passport was stolen. I suspect that somebody very naughty stole that passport. It was worth far more to them than the money. Think about it - a UK passport holder with an Asian looking bloke's photo on it. OK, that was then, and passports now have added security features, but the counterfeiters keep up with these changes. 

Sure, but on the same argument you could say we shouldnt have passports and licences fullstop but because we live in a world full of w*nkers we have to. Same applies here but on a lesser scale. 

And yep you can get fake id but it makes things more dificult. If someone wants to blow up Glastonbury they will but if you can make it harder then thats the whole point of this thread aint it? The point is, people outsourcing fake id are more likely to be picked up by authorities than someone making a fake hotmail account.

[chatty]

8 minutes ago, Raincatcher said:

The amount of space needed for the existing queueing system would realistically need to be replicated inside the fence and you would need a huge amount of extra well trained staff to introduce a tiered system. Bag searches would take longer than ticket access so you would be left with huge bottlenecks. Wednesday would be a logistical nightmare for all involved, staff and punters. The difficulty getting a ticket and the fence are protection enough, as I said before, there are much, much easier targets.

True and tbf I wouldnt want this as I would like to take drugs in but in terms of ideas for safety procedures theres liads nore that could be done. They could do tiered entrance times if they wanted. Would be a nightmare to organise but it could be done. Again, not something id want but if they were that concerned then its an option. 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

16 minutes ago, chatty said:

 The point is, people outsourcing fake id are more likely to be picked up by authorities than someone making a fake hotmail account.

Not if the outsourcing is not done in this country, but is done in one with a non existent to poor intelligence agency.

[TBD]

1 hour ago, chatty said:

You change the law to outlaw any form of extremism and come down hard on it. Anyone preaching hatred, affiliating woth terrorist organisations and condoning terrorism become illegal with the threat or jail and/or deportation. 

This is really scary - you're willing to sacrifice very very basic pillars of justice and freedom in our society on the basis of these attacks. Lets remember as horrific as they are they are very rare in this country. When you live in a society there will always be the chance nutters will kill others, it's always happened and sadly always will, eroding our hard fought (and still somewhat limited) civil liberties would be utter madness. 

Edited June 3, 2017 by TBD
Sorry some poor phrasing could have led to the wrong impression about what I was saying.

[chatty]

1 minute ago, TBD said:

This is really scary - you're willing to sacrifice very very basic pillars of justice and freedom in our society on the basis of these attacks. Lets remember as horrific as they are they are very rare in this country. When you live in a society there will always be the chance nutters will kill themselves or others, it's always happened and sadly always will, eroding our hard fought (and still somewhat limited) civil liberties would be utter madness. 

Im not sacrificing anything. Our laws are way to soft to the point they are pathetic. If anything id be gaining by having a harsher judicial system. 

One, no one preaching hate and condoning terrorism being jailed or deported is going to effect me negatively. 

Two, im not gonna suffer for it because I dont preach about killing people or want to associate with a terrorist organisation. 

So, I dont see what im sacrificing?