Middle Class Punters

[SparrowC]

What I wrote is not trickle-down economics.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Will just leave this here:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/23/dont-blame-middle-classes-ruining-glastonbury

[eFestivals]

Are you suggesting every single one of the 10,000 or so staying at WV are nasty, evil b*stards because they have paid for a service?

It's only when we're able to recognise that unnecessary luxury should not be a priority over that 5 year old Nigerian kid that we'll start to change things to the benefit of that kid.

Pretending there's nothing wrong about it ensures that nothing will change.

[Ponyegg]

I didn't say it's working well, I said it's the least bad way.

History shows that communism and socialism fails at macro-economic scale. The reason being that everyone has to be up for it and care about making it work. It'd be great if that were the case, but it's not, so it isn't.

[Benj]

that's it, point out what I've said already and prove me a hypocrite, and so all discussion about that 5 year old Nigerian on the rubbish dump and what is wrong can be avoided.

[Mr.Tease]

Sure. I wouldn't agree with the media tainting my views, but the newness of it certainly played a part.

Regarding hand outs to the rich, I can see where you're coming from, for sure. After all, everybody is equal, with some just more equal than others. I believe I'm critical enough to see through that. Besides, I'm not a fan of hand-outs in general. Rich/poor, nothing should be just given to you.

[funkyuk]

Can I get Papaya from the fruit stall in The park?

[eFestivals]

Yes there is clearly something wrong in the world. The nigerian kid should be saved by a fairer system, which is not necessarily incompatible with a pre-pitched tent service at Glastonbury.

When we've sorted the kid, only then is the time to start thinking that luxuries for ourselves can be justified, yeah?

And so at this moment in time it is incompatible.

That's a different thing to me individually condemning every person at WV, just to be clear for those who aren't getting it.

[Ponyegg]

What I wrote is not trickle-down economics.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Ponyegg

[eFestivals]

It's all well and good to preach socialism and marxism from your ivory tower, it is often preached by the people who actually embrace (deliberately or otherwise) capitalism at many turns.

Do you work in a job for a company earning share-holders money? Do you drink at Starbucks? Do you wear Nike trainers? There are hundreds of things that fall into the capitalist bracket.

We live in a world where being involved with the evils that capitalism cause is unavoidable, and so to condemn people for their individual involvement merely becomes a way of avoiding any discussion of what capitalism causes to happen.

The only way forwards is to own up to the evils ourselves. Only when we have that recognition can we tackle the problems.

Edited June 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[Ponyegg]

Can I get Papaya from the fruit stall in The park?

[autoinflate]

But it's also clear that Capitalism fails repeatedly on a macro-economic scale for exactly the same reasons.

How many times do we bail out banks and other institutions, how many times do we allow the markets to ruin economies?

[autoinflate]

Yes, but we've decided to get rid of money and return to a barter system.

I can supply you with papaya all weekend long if you'll help me put my tent up.

[MrPink]

But to me, expecting people to get underpaid and work for pittance to prop up the economic system that allows you to be reasonably wealthy is just as much a case of entitlement, if not more so, than people expecting 'handouts'

[Hove Actually]

It's only when we're able to recognise that unnecessary luxury should not be a priority over that 5 year old Nigerian kid that we'll start to change things to the benefit of that kid.

Pretending there's nothing wrong about it ensures that nothing will change.

[SparrowC]

mrpman, the first challenge is to agree a system that is genuinely fair. The second is to enforce it.

Communism, capitalism, anarchy, libertarianism, utilitarianism - none of these can actually be said to be fair. Rawls' theory of justice is the closest I know of.

[Mr.Tease]

Absolutely, I agree. Didn't think I was disagreeing?

[showmethestones]

And £200+ plus to stand in a field listening to music isn't a luxury then?

I know this might tip you over the edge, but can I confess that I sometimes pay for speedy boarding on Easyjet.

[Stu H]

We live in a world where being involved with the evils that capitalism cause is unavoidable, and so to condemn people for their individual involvement merely becomes a way of avoiding any discussion of what capitalism causes to happen.

The only way forwards is to own up to the evils ourselves. Only when we have that recognition can we tackle the problems.

[Ponyegg]

works at Burning Man or so I've heard

[SparrowC]

Really, lets look at it again.

Pretty much a dictionary definition of what trickle-down infers.

You're postulating that allowing people to attain large amounts of wealth somehow benefits those lower down the scale through, presumably, spending their money, buying services etc.... But we know this doesn't work in any effective way, it's the same attitude that exists in America where the richest pay less tax because they are seen as wealth and opportunity generators but all they do is horde their wealth and keep it out of the economy. This sort of system is only good for asset and wealth stripping a country.

[Benj]

And £200+ plus to stand in a field listening to music isn't a luxury then?

I know this might tip you over the edge, but can I confess that I sometimes pay for speedy boarding on Easyjet.

[WS_Jack_III]

I was again informed today that the festival is middle class and corporate. This was from a colleague (he's never been)

I've been thinking about this, do people mistake 'family friendly' for 'middle class'?

Also I wouldn't say the festival is corporate. Okay we have sponsorship from a mobile phone company and national newspaper but other festivals are far worse.

Plus the charity work/partnerships the festival does is awesome.

Edited June 23, 2014 by III

[MrPink]

I usually start to lose track of what everyone's arguing, round about this time in a thread

[Mr.Tease]

obviously a few words on a website board can be misconstrued, but What I'm talking about is Rawls' Difference principle:

Wikipedia:

"The Difference Principle regulates inequalities: it only permits inequalities that work to the advantage of the worst-off. This is often misinterpreted as trickle-down economics; Rawls' argument is more accurately expressed as a system where wealth "diffuses up".^[8] By guaranteeing the worst-off in society a fair deal, Rawls compensates for naturally-occurring inequalities (talents that one is born with, such as a capacity for sport).

Rawls justifies the Difference Principle on the basis that, since Fair Equality of Opportunity has lexical priority, the Just choice from Pareto optimal scenarios which could occur would be that benefiting the worst-off rather than the best-off."