an election where your vote counts

[The Nal]

I don't understand why this means they lurch to the right - if people want more equality and fairness, go left! Is the Left just shockingly bad at getting its views out there?

[eFestivals]

So is the lurch to the right a protest vote or is it people showing their true colours?

both.

People are naturally (little 'c') conservative, and more so in difficult economic times.

And because we're having difficult economic times, people are punishing the politicians who have created that - and many people are (for once) being smart enough (in the UK) to realise that the tories would have got us into at least the same mess as nuLabour did.

Unfortunately, many of those are too stupid to realise that UKIP would have got us into an even worse mess.

[The Nal]

Unfortunately, many of those are too stupid to realise that UKIP would have got us into an even worse mess.

[kaosmark2]

Nal's talking sense.

Re. the SNP and where on the spectrum they lie, noone really knows. They've been in the position for years of not getting any real power (and have rejected some of what's been transferred to Holyrood), and have used that to try and appeal across the board, being left-wing when it suits them, right-wing when it suits them, etc. Most people thought the Lib Dems were a centre-left party before the coalition, and 4 years into it, they've shown themselves as centre-right and that half their claimed ideologies were lies/thrown away for a bit of power. I don't believe the SNP will be any different.

[GlastoSimon]

Not going to happen. This "rise" is just the latest trend of "next biggest party" when people are throwing protest votes at local/EU elections because they don't actually consider them important. I will be surprised if UKIP get a single seat in parliament, let alone enough to be considered worth forming a coalition.

After all, look at the seat gain the Lib Dems had after Cleggmania 4 years ago...

Edited May 26, 2014 by GlastoSimon

[Buff124]

Re. the SNP and where on the spectrum they lie, noone really knows. They've been in the position for years of not getting any real power

[kaosmark2]

I always had this viewpoint, but if the main three parties don't change to get people back on side, the next 12 months could be interesting to say the least.

[kaosmark2]

Apart from being the Scottish Government for the past 7 years ?

[russycarps]

I don't understand why this means they lurch to the right - if people want more equality and fairness, go left! Is the Left just shockingly bad at getting its views out there?

[GlastoSimon]

Voting trends show that the lower proportion of people that vote in local and EU elections tend to revert to type in the generals. I don't think the fact Libs are in a coalition will change that drastically. UKIP will do well to get one seat. I'd be surprised if Libs get much less than 50, and most will be either Labour or Tory as always.

[kaosmark2]

What's also perhaps true is that the vast majority of UKIP supporters probably would have turned up to vote last week. I imagine quite a few supporters of the main parties didn't bother for whatever reason - which won't be as true for the GE. Much higher turnout probably means less support for UKIP, in fact I'm almost certain of that.

Unless UKIP manage to pick up more supporters in the next year, which as you point out is quite unlikely due to the 'revert to type' factor, I don't think there's too much to worry about in terms of 2015. Always at the back of my mind however

[pink_triangle]

It's because the majority of people are thick unfortunately.

[kaosmark2]

I ended up doing what I normally do and voting labour (as the least worst option) however I have been very underwhelmed by them as an opposition party. They seem terrified to join any argument when they feel they are against public opinion, which has meant a lot of natural supporters have been let down.

[Buff124]

If they have real power in Holyrood, why are they campaigning for independence?

[kaosmark2]

'Real' or not, it does mean they've been the subject of public scrutiny (in Scotland if not the UK) for a number of years.

They polled the largest number of votes of any party at the the 2007 and 2011 SP elections , the 2012 council election, and the 2014 EP election, and came 2nd in the 2010 UKP election. You think they would have been found out by now ?

[eFestivals]

Apart from being the Scottish Government for the past 7 years ?

Do people think of their local council or county council as left or right wing?

In the main they don't think either way of them no matter which party has control. Instead they think about how effectively they run the services they're in control of.

And in the main, what causes a council to change parties is not anything about how good/effective that council is, but what those parties are doing on a UK-wide level.

And that's because those local councils don't have any influence over the big decisions, they merely have a budget to spend on things which are already in existence. The most they do is tweak things a little bit here and there.

And it's dead easy to stay within the budget that council has available to operate with, because no big issues are likely to crop up (and if they do, central govt is likely to take an overriding view).

And in Holyrood? It's much the same.

Things will be vastly different in Holyrood if/when Holyrood stops being that 'local council' - and the changes won't be the utopian socialist wonderland that many yes voters want to convince themselves it'll be.

Finally, the SNP will have to reveal their true selves (if they ever stop blaming Westminster for every problem of Scotland ), and while that might a-bit-left here and a-bit-right there (tho likely to be much more a-bit-right than a-bit-left, as even the Labour Party is), the political opinions of Scotland will remain in much the same place as they currently are - just about the same as in the rest of the UK, as recent opinion polls have very solidly shown.

[Buff124]

Actually no. Regardless of how much they can actually do in Holyrood, they've always been able (and willing) to blame Westminster for anything that goes wrong. Whatever power they have, they've been evading responsibility.

[eFestivals]

'Real' or not, it does mean they've been the subject of public scrutiny (in Scotland if not the UK) for a number of years.

Then why hasn't that scrutiny had people realise they're more right-wing than the tories on some issues?

You don't get a left-leaning democracy by voting for a neo-liberal party.

[Buff124]

Then why hasn't that scrutiny had people realise they're more right-wing than the tories on some issues?

You don't get a left-leaning democracy by voting for a neo-liberal party.

[eFestivals]

An argument for transfer of more reserved powers from Westminster to Holyrood ? Much less scope for avoiding responsibility then.

If you promise me that after independence Alex won't continue with the national myth of all Scotland's fault being the fault of everyone outside of Scotland (no different to how UKIP blames the UK's problems on people outsid4e of the UK), then i'll be very happy to support Alex's dream.

Fancy giving me that worthless promise?

Alex will continue to evade responsibility by continuing to blame everything on Westminster. We both know it's how things will go.

[eFestivals]

I'd contend that the media in Scotland have put the Scottish Govt under extreme scrutiny since the 2007 election.

So Alex is known as a bigger friend of the banksters (who ripped us all off) than the tories, is he?

I'd also contend that Scot Govt social policies are more of the left than of the right

PMSL - there's not a jot of anything left-leaning in their policies. People who glory the banksters don't do left-leaning.

What there is are greater public services than in the rest of the UK, but the rest of the UK could also have those greater public services if the rest of the UK had £2k a year per-person extra to spend on public services.

Being left-leaning is about sharing around the wealth - the antithesis of everything indy-Scotland.

Edited May 26, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Then why hasn't that scrutiny had people realise they're more right-wing than the tories on some issues?

You don't get a left-leaning democracy by voting for a neo-liberal party.

[Buff124]

People who glory the banksters

Being left-leaning is about sharing around the wealth - the antithesis of everything indy-Scotland.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

So Neil, on what issues are they more right wing than the Tories?

We need more than your old corporation tax favourite.

Corp tax - the biggest factor in the transfer of the wealth to the richest in society, and the *ONLY* firm financial promise of indy-Scotland.

Banksters - Alex loves them, and egged them on (Scottish bankers, working in Scotland [don't give me that city of London crap that normally comes from nats]) to cause the bankruptcy of Scotland's biggest bank.

(and ridiculously, nowadays the nats like to claim they'd regulate the banks better than London ).

Refusing to put up taxes to benefit the poorest at the expense of the richest.

You know, the normal stuff of parties that are economically right-wing or neoliberal, but that indy-Scottish blindness &/or prejudice cannot spot.

[eFestivals]

Invective and hypebole. Thought you were a journalist of sorts ?

That's sub-Daily Mail standard.

Eh? Being left-leaning *IS* about sharing around the wealth.

That *IS* the antithesis of everything about indy-Scotland. That's about "it's mine, all mine" - the pursuit of greed by right-wing thinkers.

Edited May 26, 2014 by eFestivals