Ley Lines

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

21 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

The atheist position is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. It's not a statement of fact. Many religious apologists will paint atheists as people who claim god 100% does not exist, but that's rarely the case. They are more likely to say that they 100% don't believe in god(s) and there is 0% evidence for god(s), but these are not the same things. I don't think saying you don't believe in god(s) is necessarily audacious. I wouldn't say "I'm sure god(s) don't exist", but I certainly do not believe that they do.

Agnosticism is the position that the existence of god(s) cannot be known, which I find more of a statement on the belief that god(s) can be proven or disproved through empiricism. Personally I think that if god(s) did exist, they potentially could be proven to exist, so in that respect I am not agnostic.

These terms get confused and mis-represented far too much.

I don't believe in ley lines either. Also, I am not agnostic about them. If they did exist, I think they could be proven to exist.

Hello maelzoid,

I stand corrected. Thank you. I had thought that atheists neither believed or didn't believe. Isn't that odd, that that has been my definition of them for such a long time? Well, it is to me.

As to the proving to exist angle. Surely you are using human terms there eg . our known facts on physics, chemistry, astronomy etc. What if the God or Gods have set up earth with a system whereby we have no access to know that they exist. Surely, if God(s) have the power to create places like earth / the cosmos, then we and our knowledge is puny in relation to their powers. Surely our consciousness is a gift from them, and one which they have control over, so could easily apply limits?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Yoghurt on a Stick

[maelzoid]

1 minute ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

As to the proving to exist angle. Surely you are using human terms there eg . our known facts on physics, chemistry, astronomy etc. What if the God or Gods have set up earth with a system whereby we have no access to know that they exist. Surely, if God(s) have the power to create places like earth / the cosmos, then we and our knowledge is puny in relation to their powers. Surely our consciousness is a gift from them, and one which they have control over, so could easily apply limits?

This is the argument that most religious apologists use and it is certainly plausible.

However, it is one I don't personally believe. Am I 100% on this? No, but I have a level of credulity that sways me in this direction.

To take the biblical god as just one example, it is filled with incidents that I would take as pretty strong evidence of the existence of god ie parting of the seas, the dead coming to life, wives turning into salt etc. You could make the argument that they are not definitive proof, but I'm OK with that. We make most judgements in terms of empiricism on a "most plausible explanation" principle rather than "100% proof". So in short, I believe that at least some god(s) that people believe in could be empirically proven to exist were there a preponderance of evidence. Therefore, I am no agnostic.

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

As to the proving to exist angle. Surely you are using human terms there eg . our known facts on physics, chemistry, astronomy etc. What if the God or Gods have set up earth with a system whereby we have no access to know that they exist. Surely, if God(s) have the power to create places like earth / the cosmos, then we and our knowledge is puny in relation to their powers. Surely our consciousness is a gift from them, and one which they have control over, so could easily apply limits?

Hang on, you're saying these prankster gods have got super powers?

I pity them if they've had to watch some of my most embarrassing life moments.

[clasher]

You can't really disprove the existence of a god. When you start attributing baloney superpowers to it however, you can. So while I can't claim there certainly is no higher being/creator, I can argue that the god as described in [insert whichever you like] scripture can't exist, as the notion of - for example - omnipotence is nonsensical to begin with.

As for the ley lines - Watkins never really proposed there was anything supernatural about them, it all came later with the imagination of other people.

Edited September 25, 2019 by clasher

[mashedonmud]

Mother Nature exists. End of. ?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

6 hours ago, maelzoid said:

This is the argument that most religious apologists use and it is certainly plausible.

However, it is one I don't personally believe. Am I 100% on this? No, but I have a level of credulity that sways me in this direction.

To take the biblical god as just one example, it is filled with incidents that I would take as pretty strong evidence of the existence of god ie parting of the seas, the dead coming to life, wives turning into salt etc. You could make the argument that they are not definitive proof, but I'm OK with that. We make most judgements in terms of empiricism on a "most plausible explanation" principle rather than "100% proof". So in short, I believe that at least some god(s) that people believe in could be empirically proven to exist were there a preponderance of evidence. Therefore, I am no agnostic.

I hadn't realised that I was a religious apologist. However, although knowing of the term, I hadn't actually looked it up. This is kind of my policy with all religions. I was brought up in a very strict Roman Catholic environment and, eventually,  managed to get out of it, when i was of the age where it could no longer be forced on me. I have very little desire to consider the proffering's of other religions. I've had my fill, thanks.

Despite the above, I, cannot rule out that there is a God or even Gods. I, very occasionally, think that there are Gods, and that we on earth are their version of Minecraft, with a dollop of Call of Duty thrown in. I might start a religion myself with that in mind. Could be a runner, and possibly a really good earner - these religious nut jobs will even give you their cash, if you convince them enough that it's God's will.

As an aside (and as opposed to the words in my first paragraph above) I did, once, have a passing interest with the religion Cao Dai. However, it was only a fleeting moment in time. A one night stand, if you like.

 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

4 hours ago, clarkete said:

I pity them if they've had to watch some of my most embarrassing life moments.

There are occasions when my Roman Catholic indoctrination get the better of me, and I slip, and wonder if any of my dead relatives are really watching me crank one off.

[mashedonmud]

3 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

There are occasions when my Roman Catholic indoctrination get the better of me, and I slip, and wonder if any of my dead relatives are really watching me crank one off.

Not bothered about the deceased, but f@cking embarrassing when your mum calmly enters living room and suggests drawing the curtains. ?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

19 minutes ago, mashedonmud said:

Not bothered about the deceased, but f@cking embarrassing when your mum calmly enters living room and suggests drawing the curtains. ?

And putting your lad away!

[stuartbert two hats]

2 hours ago, mashedonmud said:

Not bothered about the deceased, but f@cking embarrassing when your mum calmly enters living room and suggests drawing the curtains. ?

I quite liked it when Yog's mum walked in on me.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

2 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I quite liked it when Yog's mum walked in on me.

I'm going to be having a strong word with my mother the next time I see her, during visiting hours. What on earth is she up to wandering in to both your living rooms ( PS - my wife insists that they should be called sitting rooms)? How on earth did she get out of prison, in any case? Questions, questions, too many questions.

I do hope that she didn't spoil your fun. I also hope that you did draw your curtains, as that will have made her happy. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Yoghurt on a Stick

[maelzoid]

14 hours ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I hadn't realised that I was a religious apologist. However, although knowing of the term, I hadn't actually looked it up. This is kind of my policy with all religions. I was brought up in a very strict Roman Catholic environment and, eventually,  managed to get out of it, when i was of the age where it could no longer be forced on me. I have very little desire to consider the proffering's of other religions. I've had my fill, thanks.

Despite the above, I, cannot rule out that there is a God or even Gods. I, very occasionally, think that there are Gods, and that we on earth are their version of Minecraft, with a dollop of Call of Duty thrown in. I might start a religion myself with that in mind. Could be a runner, and possibly a really good earner - these religious nut jobs will even give you their cash, if you convince them enough that it's God's will.

As an aside (and as opposed to the words in my first paragraph above) I did, once, have a passing interest with the religion Cao Dai. However, it was only a fleeting moment in time. A one night stand, if you like.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were a religious apologist, simply that the argument that god(s) purposely hide themselves from human scrutiny is one they use to counter the lack of evidence argument.

Starting your own religion is indeed a sound way to turn a profit (and it's tax free!). I think one of the reasons that there are so many. I think there are 4000 active religious sects in the world at the moment. A further 6000 have been recorded historically but are no longer practiced.

Personally, I was raised without religion. I never even had a concept of a god until I was 5 and started a CofE primary school. I think by then it was too late to start indoctrination...

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

50 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were a religious apologist, simply that the argument that god(s) purposely hide themselves from human scrutiny is one they use to counter the lack of evidence argument.

Starting your own religion is indeed a sound way to turn a profit (and it's tax free!). I think one of the reasons that there are so many. I think there are 4000 active religious sects in the world at the moment. A further 6000 have been recorded historically but are no longer practiced.

Personally, I was raised without religion. I never even had a concept of a god until I was 5 and started a CofE primary school. I think by then it was too late to start indoctrination...

No worries mate. As I kind of said, I've shied away from studying religion, so had no idea that what I was saying had a classification, if you like. That said, the argument about whether God(s) purposely hide themselves or not, can only be a 50/50 bet at most ie. they either do, or they don't. So, any counter argument should also be called 'apologist', surely?

Oh man were you lucky to have been raised without religion. As I said, i was raised in a strict RC environment. The thing is, I was only raised in that environment because my parents had been, and their parents before them etc. Had I been born somewhere else on the planet, I may have been raised in a different religion altogether. So, in my opinion, religion is a load of bollocks. Look at the wars and unnecessary deaths it has caused over the centuries, and continues to do so. Look at the great wealth of some religions (esp the RC church) and the poverty of some of it's followers. Look at the abuse of other people by priests, vicars etc. I can give you an example of this. I've got a mate upstairs who I had to collect from hospital yesterday, as he shattered his heel whilst visiting us last Saturday night. Anyway, one night he told me the story of his and his siblings life's. It was harrowing. I'll keep it short - they were all sent to Father Hudsons Homes in Coleshill, as their father was a violent bastard. To cut a long story short, each and everyone of them were sexually abused by the priests in charge. The boys were buggered, and his sister raped. It was systematic abuse. Boils my piss when so called religious people do things like this. it also boils my piss when non religious people do this also, by the way.

Sorry about that last bit. It wasn't exactly necessary to give an example, I don't suppose. 

The best way forward, in my opinion, for world peace is to have secular education. Fuck religion.

See, now I've said that, the RC bit comes in, and I fear that God may smite me! lol