NEXT GEN CONSOLES

[Uncle Liam]

My Xbox is starting to waver after 4 1/2 years. No RROD, but it doesnt like reading discs anymore. Only got 60gb hard drive as well, so no room on there to install games.

[t8yman]

the 120gb xbox HDD's are dirt cheap on ebay. im sure I saw them under £20 the other day.

Edited September 19, 2012 by t8yman

[Spindles]

@Tom. I am in much the same position. Everyone I know online from gaming plays over steam, so to play with them I buy games on steam/origin, everyone from work/social life plays on xbox/PS3. I am opposed to paying the gold subscription just to play games online, so I don't get to play with these people, sometimes I consider buying games on both formats (as I did with burnout paradise and NFS:HP) so that I can play with these people. Games like BF3 or other FPS games I would never play with a controller, so only buy on PC.

@mr efests. Heh,that's kids for you. My son has a dual core intel machine, I throw bits his way when I upgrade or buy him bits if something dies, but he is at uni and currently wanting a laptop, even though he knows they won't suit his gaming needs. He is embarrassed by his 10 year old lian li case (which was nice when I gave it him, but looks like crap now) and I have a brand new case sat in the kitchen for him which he has just been too lazy to take home with him. You can't MAKE kids see sense, you have to wait until they reach the conclusions themselves

@mr Mars. Yeah, I used to mod xboxes as a bit of an earner on the side. Mine was a 2009 model, it died whilst at my ex-wife's house. The kids kept borrowing it, then bringing it back, they never told me it was dead until I decided I wanted to check out ME3. I suspect mine died from not being treated with respect, more than anything. Since it died I lost interest in all things xbox and just stuck with PC. The gaming world has changed since 2009, with pretty much any title I would want on the console now being available on the PC and under windows 7/8 most titles convert to the xbox setup if you plug an xbox controller in, which is sweet (no fannying around setting up controller, everything is where you would expect it to be).

[LondonTom]

the 120gb xbox HDD's are dirt cheap on ebay. im sure I saw them under £20 the other day.

Ah !! I was looking at another size one for the original xbox and it seemed to cost a fortune! (Just had look and there seems to be quite alot around 20-30 quid) When I was looking at getting a new HDD a few weeks ago, can't remember what size but they was really expensive around £100. I was thinking with my planned add on's it might work out better to get a bundle at the time

@Tom. I am in much the same position. Everyone I know online from gaming plays over steam, so to play with them I buy games on steam/origin, everyone from work/social life plays on xbox/PS3. I am opposed to paying the gold subscription just to play games online, so I don't get to play with these people, sometimes I consider buying games on both formats (as I did with burnout paradise and NFS:HP) so that I can play with these people. Games like BF3 or other FPS games I would never play with a controller, so only buy on PC.

Yup I am really surprised Microsoft hasn't come up with a way to let PC users use Xbox Live for stuff like FIFA. But then it might cut into people buying a console as well their pc gaming machine

[Spindles]

Yeah, there have been some games where there has been some interoperability between pc and ps3 in a multiplayer environment, but none that I have played.

Shortly before the big sony hack there was talk that steam was going to ps3, but I've never heard anything about that since and while I play TF2 against people on pc, mac or linux, I still don't get to play against people on consoles.

There was a time when you used to be able to connect to dreamcast quake 3 servers with a pc. It was a time of great cruelty, where much of your time was spent on platforms above people who aren't used to looking up. Again, valve's controller design sounds like this is something they are giving massive thought to (a decent controller that gives mouse like control to aim).

I bought THPS:HD on steam tonight. I loved the first couple of THPS games and they have rebuilt the most popular levels from the first 2 games in a modern engine, included a fair chunk of the original soundtracks (with some new music) and stuck it out for a tenner on steam, which represented good value. Sadly no multiplayer (will probably try and sell us that later)

Edited September 19, 2012 by Spindles

[Spartacus Mars]

@Spindles, if I had a gaming PC I'd never turn my Xbox on. But each time I spec a gaming PC I can't squish it to a price I'm willing to pay.

Also, distant memories of juggling drivers, tweaking INI files, etc. etc. ugh. Don't miss that at all. At. ALL.

That said, I want to crack open a fresh edition of Softimage and get back into modelling, and there's Oolite which is just begging for development work.

[Spindles]

Yeah, however I would always say that as long as you have a PCI-E slot then just adding a half decent video card to whatever PC you are using will give you a machine that is suitable for gaming. If you are on a laptop then obviously that's not an option. I am not a laptop fan, because for me the beauty of the PC is it's modularity.

With windows 7/8 the whole driver/ini nightmare is pretty much put to bed. Not entirely, but almost. Certainly major recognised vendor parts (eg: ATI/Nvidia cards) or motherboards just pick up everything without any need to fanny around.

My health has improved massively since the op, over the last few days I have rebuilt a PC, spruced up my main one with a crafty 128gb SSD for my steam directory and will use the spare bits my son is too lazy to take to put together a dual core machine for the kitchen (currently got an old AMD 64 in there which we use for iplayer/tunes/recipes while cooking) and I'm hoping to be back into development by the winter.

I haven't been able to sit at a desk and use a PC for nearly 2 years (couldn't hold right arm out to use mouse for most of it due to pain from the lung) and as I heal and exercise the arm I am getting more and more capable. It's Max/PS/Wotgreal/Ued for me and as soon as I have built a machine (just need about £80 worth of parts) I'll be back to work \o/

[eFestivals]

Yeah, however I would always say that as long as you have a PCI-E slot then just adding a half decent video card to whatever PC you are using will give you a machine that is suitable for gaming.

erm .... perhaps it's me that's seriously out of date and not you, but shouldn't that say an AGP2 card, and not PCI-E?

It was a few years ago now, but I had an awful job trying to find a shop with a PCI graphics card on the shelf, cos they're so out of date.

[Spindles]

Heh, PCI-Express is the new standard. AGP went the way of E-ISA and Vesa local bus, I am afraid.

Unfortunately the PC components industry have long made a crafty buck by changing standards on a frequency that is just plain cruel. Socket 7/AGP/DDR was probably the longest lasting standard, but since then they changed the CPU, memory and video card standards to make nothing but your hard drive re-usable when upgrading a machine (and even then most drives are SATA rather than IDE now, although there is legacy support on most motherboards)

I'm using intel socket 775 based chips on the whole, which take DDR2 up to 1066 and support PCI-Ex16 video cards, which means I can still just about swap parts around using the second hand market for processors and RAM (CEX are great for this) and any modern video card.

Just to add insult to injury, power supplies have had to keep up with this, with the introduction of direct power to video cards for higher end cards and lots of wattage.

Since then there has been yet another generation (i3-i7 class for intel, bulldozer and alike for AMD) which in turn has it's own memory (DDR3) and chip standards (LOTS of sockets :/)

They do their best to make it so that you can't upgrade unless you do so regularly, sometimes I forget that people are often on a slower upgrade path than myself (it's my main hobby)

[Paul ™]

I ain't built my own PC now for about 7-8 years... would probably not have a clue where to start these days due to all the changes! lol

[Spindles]

It's still basically like lego/meccano to be honest. Slot things in the right way, connect the right leads. Gone are the days of jumper pins and switches to set frequencies, modern operating systems handle most of the driver setup and even automate network setup to be a doddle.

The best value you can possibly get is to be like Paul and make your computer last, but for gaming that is not such an option. I often forget that people are still going to be looking at machines which are more than 4 years old when I make comments like "a decent video card is usually all you need" as I forget that today's video cards won't fit yesterdays machines.

Companies like Epic games have been pushing for a long time to improve the standard of onboard video cards in order that a cheap off the shelf machine can play modern games on lower detail settings, that is something that is starting to happen. Unfortunately, to play any sort of game that is more graphically advanced than sim city, you need additional graphical firepower.

[eFestivals]

Heh, PCI-Express is the new standard. AGP went the way of E-ISA and Vesa local bus, I am afraid.

so it is me that's seriously out of date.

I've not built a new PC for 4 years or so now, and that was built on the cheap with older kit. And it's even longer since I bought a fully-built unit.

But the plan is - payments due to the company permitting (don't ask ) - to buy myself something new and shiny in a couple of months when Windoze 8 gets released, as all the windoze PCs I'm currently running here are still using XP-Pro, and they were hardly hi-spec machines when bought new.

Talking of which: the plan is to buy something ready-built off-the-shelf (I'm being lazy), but I don't want to shaft myself as I did last time by buying non-upgradable (or barely upgradable) Dells.

So does anyone have any suggestions for what manufacturer to buy? And I'd also be grateful for someone to suggest what sort of spec I should go for, for a non-gaming but heavy business use desktop PC? I'm not wanting to spend more than £1k, and in my head I'm thinking of the spend being something like £600+vat (tho that might be too hopeful?).

[Paul ™]

Oh I don't have that PC anymore

When I was working with Dell a few years back, I got myself a cheap Dell PC (not for gaming) which is actually still working damn well for being about 5 years old and has only had to have one memory dimm replaced (under warranty)

[eFestivals]

When I was working with Dell a few years back, I got myself a cheap Dell PC (not for gaming) which is actually still working damn well for being about 5 years old and has only had to have one memory dimm replaced (under warranty)

the Dells I'm using are 7 years old, and nothing has gone wrong with them aside from the occasional dead hard disk (mostly when they get shut down at xmas, about the only time they do get shut down).

There's not really anything to go wrong - tho they're more likely to go wrong if they're shutdown and started regularly (the heat change that causes to the components has an effect on the life of those components).

[Spindles]

I used to have my own business (which folded when supermarket PC prices came down to match my own) and would advise to avoid brands like Dell, HP, Packard Bell and so on. These manufacturers use methods such as including a power supply which is rated only just to handle the load of the computer when brand new, so as it ages and degrades, or you add more hardware it will not keep up, causing the computer to become unstable/erratic (eg: random reboots). The worst example I ever saw was a Dell machine that was only a year old where it fell down when it had a network card added (which uses almost no power).

I would recommend using a website like ebuyer, novatech, overclockers uk or similar, who provide decent quality components that are built to last and bundles made up of parts that work well together.

Take note of the power demands of the components and get a power supply that gives AT LEAST 20% more total wattage. This gives you room for upgrade and allows for degradation over time. Companies like those above wouldn't sell a machine that had poorly selected/rated parts.

If you aren't looking to game, don't spend much. A zoostorm pc or other low price branded ready built machine will probably suit your needs and should be built with a motherboard and power supply that have capability to upgrade memory/replace video card a couple of years down the line without having to replace the entire box.

I used to be able to undercut PC world in the days they were selling £300 worth of hardware for £1000 by selling people the same hardware for £350. Companies like medion moving into the supermarket space saw it hard to convince people to buy from a small company when they prefer to buy from "big names" as they feel that gives them more protection, which it does to an extent (as long as you keep your proof of purchase and your fault is genuine - my experience was that 90% of computer returns are due to user error)

Edited September 20, 2012 by Spindles

[Spindles]

Here is a good "cheap" PC example:

http://www.ebuyer.com/389624-zoostorm-desktop-pc-7873-1067

Just add a monitor, keyboard and mouse (all cheap as chips these days) and an OS (windows 8 is going to be VERY cheap, with upgrage version as cheap as £24.99)

If you wanted to upgrade in the future you could put a decent video card in (would need to upgrade PSU if you did, for gaming 300w just doesn't cut it, look at 550w minimum and dependent on the video card/chip/amount of components attached you might want more)

The chip has enough power for any home need and would play most current games on lower settings without adding a video card, for high power games like Battlefield3 or the latest NFS you would want to add a video card (spend around £100 at most, spending more than that on a video card is providing power for tomorrow's games before they are out)

A top end video card can cost £450 and last you 4 years. It is better value to spend £100 every 18 months and take advantage of midrange cards (in my opinion) and this is what I have always done, although in recent years the need to upgrade has slowed, it seems.

Spending lower amounts is false economy. Cheap components fail faster, cheaper chips/cards are underpowered for todays needs and therefore will be frustrating with tomorrow's

Spending higher amounts is also false economy. Top end parts are designed for the day after tomorrow, so you are paying a premium to use them today and them not be taxed. A £450 component today will cost £150 (more or less) in 18 months.

[eFestivals]

(windows 8 is going to be VERY cheap, with upgrage version as cheap as £24.99)

windows is always dirt cheap as part of a bundle, but it's a complete rip-off to buy stand-alone.

It's precisely for that reason that I'll be buying a pre-built, because that windows premium is normally what makes a self-build more expensive than identical hardware in a pre-built.

[eFestivals]

Cheap components fail faster

they really don't - over 20 years of PC building and PC buying (I'm talking 1000's) has proven that to me.

Edited September 20, 2012 by eFestivals

[Spindles]

Ah well, I'm basing my opinion on brands like pc-chips who used to be the cheapest motherboards with everything included. In my experience of selling/upgrading these cheap motherboards tend to fall down (for example onboard sound just packing in) where spending a few more quid on, for example, an asus board is worth that extra cash. Similarly you can get a 500w PSU for about £15 or about £50, I know which one will fail first

[eFestivals]

Ah well, I'm basing my opinion on brands like pc-chips who used to be the cheapest motherboards with everything included. In my experience of selling/upgrading these cheap motherboards tend to fall down (for example onboard sound just packing in) where spending a few more quid on, for example, an asus board is worth that extra cash. Similarly you can get a 500w PSU for about £15 or about £50, I know which one will fail first

I used to work in the IT dept of a large retailer, and we always bought Viglens (this is nearly 20 years ago now) - because they were "a premium brand" and in theory would need less IT support for hardware failures. The MD then insisted that we buy only the cheap and deggy PCs that a new high street retailer sold (I forget their name, they were the company that took over most of the Rumbelows stores; they went bankrupt fairly quickly) and we found that they gave us no more trouble than those Viglens.

Nowadays there's far fewer sources of parts for all parts for PCs (including the bits that a builder doesn't buy, such as the circuitry & bits on the motherboard), so the variation in quality is much less than you might think.

For example (things might have changed since), a while back there was only one manufacturer for all CD drives in the world for all purposes - and for all the bits that mattered they were 100% identical. It was only the quality of the casings which varied.

[Spindles]

Yeah, this is much what I'm saying about brands like Dell or HP. When I say buying cheap I am talking about components. Some brands use cheap components but this isn't reflected in the price of the PC itself.

Not going to argue with your experience, mine is the same, but replace viglen with Dell.

The company I now work for used Dell boxes, which kept failing. I asked why we were buying them and it turned out it was for the support contract. I pointed out that when they failed they were being binned, so where was the support?

We now use slightly better machines (but still a major brand name).

For motherboards I pretty much only use Asus these days, for video cards I am a fan of Zotac, Gainward or Asus (got my fingers burned with some cheaper brands where the crap cooling was the saving) and memory I say the same thing, generic ram will fail faster than brands like Geil or Corsair. It's also important if you are going high end to bear in mind that cooling is a vital factor in the lifespan of components, gone are the days of a heatsink being all that was needed for a CPU, these days your video card (and even in some cases your ram) needs active cooling.

[eFestivals]

Yeah, this is much what I'm saying about brands like Dell or HP. When I say buying cheap I am talking about components. Some brands use cheap components but this isn't reflected in the price of the PC itself.

the place where Dell cut corners isn't with cheap components, but with cut-down motherboards - a lack of slots for upgrades of all kinds.

The company I now work for used Dell boxes, which kept failing. I asked why we were buying them and it turned out it was for the support contract. I pointed out that when they failed they were being binned, so where was the support?

I can only think you'd had a duff batch. I've not seen any worse fail rate with Dells to anything else.

generic ram will fail faster than brands like Geil or Corsair.

while that's perhaps the case - tho I doubt it, given how (just like with CD drives) nearly all ram comes from the same few factories and is made with identical processes no matter what name gets stamped on it - the failure rate for RAM is soo soooo low that it's really not an issue.

If you're seeing a failure rate that's causing you to write those words, then i'd suggest that you're mugging yourself with your belief that certain brands are noticeably better, and that in fact you're buying the duff brands and not the good ones.

It's also important if you are going high end to bear in mind that cooling is a vital factor in the lifespan of components, gone are the days of a heatsink being all that was needed for a CPU, these days your video card (and even in some cases your ram) needs active cooling.

it's not the lack of cooling that tends to make components fail, but the amount of heating and cooling that takes place via a PC being turned on and off.

I've got 2 Dell PCs here that run 24/7/365 and have done for the 7 years I've had them - the only failures with them have been with the hard disks, and perhaps (I can't remember if it was these particular PCs) a failed power supply or two.

I used to have 2 other (self built) PCs running 24/7/365 too (and did for many years), and again the only failures they've had have been HDDs and perhaps the power supplies.

I didn't even have stuff fail on my PCs 20+ years ago, when the manufacturing processes were much more ropey than they are today.

[Spindles]

Ah well, you are entitled to your opinion, we are all influenced by different experiences.

I've kept current, so felt equipped to offer advice when you asked for it, up to you whether you discount it.

[eFestivals]

Ah well, you are entitled to your opinion, we are all influenced by different experiences.

I've kept current, so felt equipped to offer advice when you asked for it, up to you whether you discount it.

I

appreciate your suggestions.

But just back on what I said about RAM, as I've just remembered .... there was a period of about 6 months around the time of the Kobe earthquake where there was just one RAM manufacturer in the world (cos the only other manufacturer was wiped out by that earthquake), and all RAM was made by the same process in that one factory .... and at that time there were people like you saying "buy the branded memory, it's better" - when it just wasn't anything different at all, apart from the price.

There are of course differences in quality between brands sometimes, but given how sometimes all the stuff for everyone is coming out of the same factory and made by the same processes, there's sometimes much less difference than a person might think.

Edited September 20, 2012 by eFestivals

[Spindles]

Indeed, you are not wrong. At the time the largest RAM module was 128mb and my business partner and I had happened to buy at a time when they cost £25 in bulk, following Kobe they went up to nearly £200 and we sold everything we had, getting by with only minimal memory in our own machines to make that extra money.

The actual chips all come from the same factories, it is how different vendors mount them on boards and the quality of the work that makes the difference in brands, I find.

Like I say, I have had my fingers burned in the past, doesn't mean it would be that way for everyone. Buying cheap is like a lottery, I think, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I just don't like to gamble now (hence why I only use Asus boards, I swear by them and the company I worked for building PCs after my own business went down the pan swore by them for the same reasons, which reinforced my view).