The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Obamma lamma ding dong!

nah, that's exactly what it isn't.

Not a jot of it is unexpected. Do you think the EU has any different opinion towards the indyref? They'd rather you voted no too.

The very nature of any mature institution makes it anti-change. An independent Scotland might roll out a few significant changes in its first few years, but soon enough an anti-change culture will emerge within the new Scottish institutions no different to anywhere else.

[LJS]

nah, that's exactly what it isn't.

Not a jot of it is unexpected. Do you think the EU has any different opinion towards the indyref? They'd rather you voted no too.

The very nature of any mature institution makes it anti-change. An independent Scotland might roll out a few significant changes in its first few years, but soon enough an anti-change culture will emerge within the new Scottish institutions no different to anywhere else.

Wasn't expressing surprise or annoyance...more like indifference.

You can make a case for his intervention benefiting one side or the other.

My view is it will make precious little difference either way.

[eFestivals]

You make me laugh so many nats do.

"Intervention"? What intervention?

He was asked a question at a press conference, and he answered it.

That's all there was to it, but you can't see it as anything but some sort of conspiracy.

I'm going to buy Scotland a tin foil hat for xmas.

Edited June 6, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

You make me laugh so many nats do.

"Intervention"? What intervention?

He was asked a question at a press conference, and he answered it.

That's all there was to it, but you can't see it as anything but some sort of conspiracy.

I'm going to buy Scotland a tin foil hat for xmas.

What bit of my indifference has passed you by?

[eFestivals]

What bit of my indifference has passed you by?

the bit where your 'indifference' sees an answer to a question posed to Obama as "his intervention".

Still, you've held back compared to many. Most yes-ers whose comments I've seen online have said things such as "outrageous" , "put up to it by Dave", "how dare he" and "he should butt out" ... while of course the celebrations would have started already if he'd said he was for it.

[LJS]

the bit where your 'indifference' sees an answer to a question posed to Obama as "his intervention".

Oops! Did I use the wrong word? Silly me!

[LJS]

The revolution spreads...

Croydon residents stage their own Scottish independence referendum

They live more than 300 miles from the border — but the residents of a “rebel” south London district are to be given the chance to become part of an independent Scotland.

Voters in South Norwood will head to the ballot box a week before the official Scottish referendum.

The unorthodox poll, with echoes of Ealing comedy Passport to Pimlico, will offer three options for the SE25 postcode area — to join a breakaway Scotland, leave Croydon and become the independent People’s Republic of South Norwood or stay as they are.

The self-styled South Norwood Tourist Board (SNTB), which is organising the “Crexit” referendum, has written to Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond asking him to visit the area. SNTB member and “ageing anarchist” Ian Bone, 66, said: “At the elections last month only a third of people eligible to vote turned out. People thought it was boring . We want to inject a bit of fun into politics.”

Board member Jason Cooper said they had the support of “over a thousand” residents. The group has floated the idea of South Norwood getting its own stamps and currency, and has suggested the Harris Academy school could change to the “Haggis Academy”.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/croydon-residents-stage-their-own-scottish-independence-referendum-9483557.html

Edited June 6, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

The revolution spreads...

yep, more nutters.

Or ... you're welcome to them.

Or ..... you'd tell them to gtf, you've already decided that the oil isn't for sharing with the English (oooo, bit too near the truth that one ).

[LJS]

I hope everyone has been enjoying "lego Indy wars"

[eFestivals]

More than anything Lego, I'm enjoying the idea I'm seeing coming from Scotland, that if England win the world cup Scotland will vote yes.

It reminds me of the words of someone in this thread (I forget who), who suggested that the Commonwealth Games would (rabble ) rouse nationalist feeling to beyond victory.

Talk about yes looking for hope in the most unlikely places, where even the most petty thing like Lego's meaningless complaint gets celebrated.

From where i'm sat it's now starting to sound like yes already saying "we know we've lost", as they celebrate the only "victories" (like with Lego) that they're going to have to celebrate.

[LJS]

I believe I may have mentioned the Commonwealth Games in a list of events this year that had the potential to have some influence on the outcome oh the referendum. I stopped some way short of claiming it would have quite the effect you say.

As for the England World cup thing. I have mixed feelings on this. Part of me sees it as a bit petty & childish. However we do see England as out greatest sporting rivals. & to take a similar rivalry , how many Liverpool fans have taken delight in man utd's demise this year? Something to do with human nature, I suspect.

[eFestivals]

As for the England World cup thing. I have mixed feelings on this. Part of me sees it as a bit petty & childish. However we do see England as out greatest sporting rivals. & to take a similar rivalry , how many Liverpool fans have taken delight in man utd's demise this year? Something to do with human nature, I suspect.

except of course the Liverpool/Man Utd thing has more fish and less chips.

iScotland has a whole campaign based on fish and chips, without the fish.

[eFestivals]

PS: to elaborate, and hopefully temper a bit of the outrage I can already feel brewing...

Salmond says that Westminster governs Scotland badly, so Scotland should govern itself. It's the very heart of the campaign.

And yet .... what if Westminster goverened Scotland perfectly?

Salmond would find another reason to say why Scotland should be governed by Scotland.

So the Westminster thing? It's just the chain he pulls you by, to try and mug you into going along with his lust for power.

[LJS]

except of course the Liverpool/Man Utd thing has more fish and less chips.

iScotland has a whole campaign based on fish and chips, without the fish.

Twas not a precise analogy.

[Comfy Bean]

You make me laugh so many nats do.

"Intervention"? What intervention?

He was asked a question at a press conference, and he answered it.

That's all there was to it, but you can't see it as anything but some sort of conspiracy.

I'm going to buy Scotland a tin foil hat for xmas.

Yeah...imagine his surprise when he was asked that question. Totally unexpected no doubt. I`m sure Dave will pay him back

[Comfy Bean]

From where i'm sat it's now starting to sound like yes already saying "we know we've lost", as they celebrate the only "victories" (like with Lego) that they're going to have to celebrate.

As I`ve said before, I think ( sadly ) that you are probably right. From the start my guess has been 60 / 40 in favor of NO with a turnout that will leave us ALL a bit disappointed. Will this really make you happy though ? Will you be rejoicing that a little bit of the British Empire will remain intact ? Will you be puffing out your chest the next morning and giving it Rule Brittania happy that we have been put in our place. I`ve followed this thread for a while and I`m not convinced you will be waving the union jack like some of the other posters here. No offence intended, it`s just a hunch I`ve had for a while. Happy to correct if I`m well wide of the mark. I know you have followed this vote closely and have put in the research. Have you read any of the input from Patrick Harvie and the Greens ? He shares your views on Corporation Tax and is on record as having no interest in flag waving or national anthems. Why do you think the guy is giving so much time campaigning up and down the country for YES ? He thinks that independence will bring a fairer society and greater opportunities for the future of Scotland. Surely you don`t think its all about oil / jam / greed for him do you ?

[LJS]

PS: to elaborate, and hopefully temper a bit of the outrage I can already feel brewing...

Salmond says that Westminster governs Scotland badly, so Scotland should govern itself. It's the very heart of the campaign.

And yet .... what if Westminster goverened Scotland perfectly?

Salmond would find another reason to say why Scotland should be governed by Scotland.

So the Westminster thing? It's just the chain he pulls you by, to try and mug you into going along with his lust for power.

What if? what if?

We all make our own judgements of people - I don't see Alex as having a "lust for power" - at least not any more than any other politician. As I've said before, if he was purely motivated by such a lust, he would surely not have chosen the SNP as his vehicle.

I may be wrong, of course, he may be a power crazed maniac.Thank God we live in a democracy... or do you think Darling was right & if he wins the referendum, he will declare himself Glorious Leader for Life?

[LJS]

I have, from time to time, been a wee bit critical of some of the media coverage of the referendum. On a personal level, as someone who read the guardian for many years, I have been disappointed by their often unquestioning reporting of the No campaign.

So, credit where credit I as due: here is an (in my opinion) excellent & (in my opinion) balanced piece

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/08/scottish-independence-referendum-galvanises-debate

[eFestivals]

Yeah...imagine his surprise when he was asked that question. Totally unexpected no doubt. I`m sure Dave will pay him back

You're mentioning it here, LJS is mentioning it here, it's been on the front page of every newspaper.

I think that proves the interest in Obama's thoughts, don't you?

Guess what sort of stuff reporters report? Might it be stuff that interests others, just perhaps?

To indulge you, perhaps it was a set-up. Now: why do you care, and why do you think it effects anything of the vote?

Meanwhile, you'd still be answering the questions there identically if he'd said he supported a yes, yes?

[eFestivals]

As I`ve said before, I think ( sadly ) that you are probably right. From the start my guess has been 60 / 40 in favor of NO with a turnout that will leave us ALL a bit disappointed. Will this really make you happy though ? Will you be rejoicing that a little bit of the British Empire will remain intact ?

The problem with so many yes-ers is that they can so often be a bit brain-dead.

They seem to have a big problem understanding that it's quite possible to be against independence for Scotland on a basis that never once gets mentioned within anything of the campaign - that independence needs the support of the people within that (yet-to-be) independent state.

The very fact that you're needing a referendum with a campaign pretty much gets to show that there isn't that support for indy.

If yes win by just one vote, I'm guessing you'd celebrate the victory, and nothing of that narrow victory would matter. You'd have got what you want, and stuff how anyone else might feel about it, and ignore the fact that within a short time amongst those who voted it's very likely that they'd no longer be even that one-vote in support.

And guess what? You'd have just proven that you're as democratically inept as any Eton attending English tory can ever be .... and you want to tell your country how much better at democracy you are.

I know you have followed this vote closely and have put in the research. Have you read any of the input from Patrick Harvie and the Greens ? He shares your views on Corporation Tax and is on record as having no interest in flag waving or national anthems. Why do you think the guy is giving so much time campaigning up and down the country for YES ? He thinks that independence will bring a fairer society and greater opportunities for the future of Scotland. Surely you don`t think its all about oil / jam / greed for him do you ?

You know how you look south and see a poodle standing alongside the Moron, who wants to believe that the circumstances have given him power?

(the next election will show just how much the circumstances have given Clegg real and sustaining power.)

Now look back north, to see all the same.

Meanwhile, if you want to see the Greens as politically meaningful in Scotland, you're going to have to face up to UKIP being more-meaningful seeing as they get more votes.

Edited June 9, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

What if? what if?

We all make our own judgements of people - I don't see Alex as having a "lust for power" - at least not any more than any other politician. As I've said before, if he was purely motivated by such a lust, he would surely not have chosen the SNP as his vehicle.

I may be wrong, of course, he may be a power crazed maniac.Thank God we live in a democracy... or do you think Darling was right & if he wins the referendum, he will declare himself Glorious Leader for Life?

I'm getting at the fact that Alex is pulling your chain. He's using the problems that exist within Westminster to create an outcome to his advantage, rather than trying to address the problems.

You have realised that politicians are there to address problems, haven't you?

So why is Alex not trying to address them? When he has the power to address them, he says it's not worth him bothering unless you first give him more power.

Notice how addressing the problems comes 2nd to giving him more power?

But you've not noticed.

[eFestivals]

I have, from time to time, been a wee bit critical of some of the media coverage of the referendum. On a personal level, as someone who read the guardian for many years, I have been disappointed by their often unquestioning reporting of the No campaign.

I'm pleased to see a recognition in those words that has been absent from your previous comments about media reporting - that you've finally recognised it as what it actually is (unquestioning reporting) rather than the deliberate bias or an establishment plot as you've said previously.

Firstly, the very place that any mainstream media will always sit is within the status quo (until such time, at least, until the status quo is obviously teetering). And from this comes a situation where it's differences to the status quo that get reported.

Secondly, by nature, those media are able to recruit "the best" in establishment terms, with who are "the best" having been decided via their interaction with the establishment (ooooh, the intellectual freedom of education ).

And thirdly, in a world where few mainstream media outlets are making money, the ability to report objectively is massively limited by limited resources. What should be "a reporter" becomes a content creator, with the content that is created knocked together from the press releases sat in front of that writer. If that writer is in London (and most are) then it's likely they'll never see much that gives a not-London view (tho that's a failing of yes-ers in refusing to recognise the world outside of its own-drawn boundaries).

Edited June 9, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Scottish independence: Better Together campaign adopts 'No Thanks' slogan

The "No Thanks" slogan has already been used publicly at campaign events

The slogan being used by the campaign to keep Scotland in the Union is being changed, ahead of the 18 September independence referendum.

"Better Together" will be superseded with "No Thanks" in campaign publicity, the BBC understands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27779131

Gosh that's a catchy slogan eh? I guess they must have thought of a few other hard hitting alternatives - like maybe "I say chaps, jolly kind of you to offer but I'll give it a miss if you don't mind!" or " Sorry, I'm washing my hair"

I wonder how much they spent on focus groups to come up with that?

Edited June 10, 2014 by LJS

[brandycoke]

This one's way better.

[eFestivals]

Scottish independence: Better Together campaign adopts 'No Thanks' slogan

The "No Thanks" slogan has already been used publicly at campaign events

they should have gone for "we're shit" instead. It would resonate about the same.

The amusing thing is, if they did: no would still win.