The Dirty Independence Question

[zahidf]

JK Rowling given £1 million pounds to the NO Campaign

[atomised]

Probably most of thats been spent on coming up with that slogan

[eFestivals]

JK Rowling given £1 million pounds to the NO Campaign

I'm looking forwards to reading what the cybernats have to say about that when I get round the papers later - the smell of hypocrisy is likely to be overwhelming.

[zahidf]

I'm looking forwards to reading what the cybernats have to say about that when I get round the papers later - the smell of hypocrisy is likely to be overwhelming.

http://politicshome.com/uk/story/42654/

'

But one Scottish charity caused controversy after it appeared to attack the author over her donation. A number of Twitter users called for an apology from The Dignity Project after an account claiming to be run by the charity stated: "What a #bitch after we gave her shelter in our city when she was a single mum."'

[Stash]

"Better Together" will be superseded with "No Thanks" in campaign publicity, the BBC understands.

It's probably a smart move. The simplest things can often help. It is after all the No campaign, so using the word no in their title would have been an obvious play from the beginning. They probably shied away from it thinking that it'd be too negative, but it seems that they can't breathe without being accused of negativity so probably thought "what the hell"!

[Comfy Bean]

they should have gone for "we're shit" instead. It would resonate about the same.

The amusing thing is, if they did: no would still win.

and this NO vote will make you happy ? You seemed to avoid that question last time. Rule Brittania etc.

Away from all the - who donated what and whether or not Salmond is a twat, for me it all boils down to : Do you believe that the people of Scotland are capable of governing their own country ?

If you do then vote YES and if you don`t then vote NO. Why would you vote NO ..... Surely we all want to live in an independent democratic country.

The main reason given time after time by NO voters is they are worried about their jobs and their pensions. I am surprised at the position you " appear " to be taking on this Neil. As I`ve said before, Scotland would have a working class majority vote and our political parties would be out on their ear if they went against the wishes of that majority. Why would we prefer to continue to be " ruled " by the rich kids in London

[Comfy Bean]

Imagine years down the line as the welfare " reforms " continue to bite, the cuts continue and the gap between rich and poor widens and your thinking to yourself about how you voted " No Thanks ". Dear o dear.

[Stash]

...for me it all boils down to : Do you believe that the people of Scotland are capable of governing their own country ?

Is it really as simple as that. Do you not worry about how well the country will be governed or any of the details on how the country will be setup?

...If you do then vote YES and if you don`t then vote NO. Why would you vote NO ..... Surely we all want to live in an independent democratic country

In your haste to exclude the possibility of anyone ever voting no, your logic has gone a bit astray here. I thought it was all about wanting the country to be governed by the people? Is it now about living in an independent democratic country?

Surely those people who plan to vote no because they are satisfied with the dependencies within the Union have a right to do so, despite your personal opinions?

[russycarps]

Comfortablynumb is sounding very frustrated and desperate there. Reality is biting I guess

[eFestivals]

and this NO vote will make you happy ? You seemed to avoid that question last time. Rule Brittania etc.

Yes, I think a no vote will make me happier for the people of Scotland than a yes vote - but because of the circumstances around the vote and for no other reason.

From where I'm sat it seems pretty clear that the people of Scotland aren't mentally ready to be independent, and that if 'yes' did win the numbers in favour would be too small for the support to be sustained.

To build yourselves a successful new state you need the people to want to build that successful new state, not (essentially) vote themselves a tax cut - which is certainly the motivations of some (and whether that would actually come about is debatable).

You also need the people of that state to be able to understand what an independent state is - and the claim on another state as Scotland's financial guarantor is not that.

Away from all the - who donated what and whether or not Salmond is a twat, for me it all boils down to : Do you believe that the people of Scotland are capable of governing their own country ?

Nope, it's not that at all.

It's whether the people of Scotland *want to* govern their own country.

And the fact that yes-ers don't wish to face is that most already think that they do.

Which is why they want to label anyone with different conclusions to them as any of unpatriotic, fearful, stupid, or worse, because the central point of everything here is what a person wants to regard as their country.

If nat's can't make people in Scotland think of Scotland as primary, they've got little leverage to get those people on side (so resort to bribery instead, as they have) - and for anyone with even half an idea of what nats do, they'll have already seen the 30+ years of bullshit that has been used to get things even to here.

The main reason given time after time by NO voters is they are worried about their jobs and their pensions.

see above.

I am surprised at the position you " appear " to be taking on this Neil. As I`ve said before, Scotland would have a working class majority vote and our political parties would be out on their ear if they went against the wishes of that majority. Why would we prefer to continue to be " ruled " by the rich kids in London

yeah yeah, i know, Scotland will be a left-leaning utopia, because every Scot with tory thoughts died suddenly in 1983.

Meanwhile, currently in that left leaning utopia, social justice isn't worth bothering with because there's too little bowing down at Alex's feet. While he doesn't need more power to deliver social justice, he says he'll only deliver it if you give him power to do other things (which he also may or may not do, despite what he says now - just as with social justice).

And the strangest thing about all that? Not a peep of the scam is ever mentioned by those left-leaning people.

Perhaps because they're not left-leaning people after all?

When you're voting for an even greater raving-right-wing neoliberal policy than even the tories are promising, anyone who hasn't already realised that utopia is on indefinite hold is going to have a rather surprised lifetime if Scotland votes yes.

Edited June 12, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Comfortablynumb is sounding very frustrated and desperate there. Reality is biting I guess

What reality is that, Russy?

That Yes will lose.

Probably right... but still only probably - there is still over 3 months to go. I haven't given up.

I think Comfy is frustrated because he struggles to understand why anyone would vote no.

I agree with most of what comfy says but I do understand that many people will vote no for perfectly valid reasons - perhaps I understand that because I would probably have voted No if the referendum had been held any time in the last 25 years - up until about a year ago.

I watched Janet Street Porter wandering about Scotland talking to people about the referendum (I think the programme was only shown in Scotland)

The main thing that came across to me in most of the people she spoke to was the lack of absolute certainty in most of them. What was clear was that most of them had though long & hard about their decision. And many could see both sides of the argument.

There were several who suggested they may not make their final decision until the day of the vote.

[eFestivals]

Imagine years down the line as the welfare " reforms " continue to bite, the cuts continue and the gap between rich and poor widens and your thinking to yourself about how you voted " No Thanks ". Dear o dear.

or down the line how the SG refuses to deliver greater social justice even tho it has the power to do it.

Oh, that's not even down the line, that's what's happening RIGHT NOW!!!

And it's happening right now because the people of Scotland won't put their hands in their pockets to pay for greater social justice, no differently to anywhere else in the UK.

[LJS]

When you're voting for an even greater raving-right-wing neoliberal policy than even the tories are promising, anyone who hasn't already realised that utopia is on indefinite hold is going to have a rather surprised lifetime if Scotland votes yes.

this remains as much a load of bollocks as it was every other time I've explained to you what I'm voting for.

But as you like the sound of it, you keep trotting it out even though it bears no relation to reality.

[eFestivals]

I'm looking forwards to reading what the cybernats have to say about that when I get round the papers later - the smell of hypocrisy is likely to be overwhelming.

I've got to say the stench was much less than I'd thought it might be, tho particular special mention goes to the users of the word 'sassie'. Isn't that civic nationalism just great?

What was quite surprising was the numbers of new no-ers who have suddenly come out of the woodwork to voice their opinions, and where reading between the lines it was pretty clear they felt 'safe' to voice their opinions (perhaps for the first time) around news of JK's donation.

And even more surprising was that, for the very first time (in 5+ months of reading newspaper comments on this subject), I saw someone who plans voting yes properly take Salmond to task (to the point of blaming him for the total failure of yes) instead of being willing to voice the most weak and pointless criticisms. It actually gave me hope that in the future opinion in Scotland might actually be ready for indy (rather than perhaps voting for it anyway but not being ready).

Edited June 12, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

this remains as much a load of bollocks as it was every other time I've explained to you what I'm voting for.

it's the one and only solid policy of the white paper - the very thing you're voting to endorse.

I'm sure you'd still be pretending otherwise (if Scotland votes yes) when this tax cuts for the richest came in.

But as you like the sound of it, you keep trotting it out even though it bears no relation to reality.

What does bear relation to reality is the SG delivering not a single jot of social justice when it has the powers to, but you'd rather forget about that solid fact as it doesn't fit the false narrative of the utopian left-leaning Scotland.

[LJS]

I've got to say the stench was much less than I'd thought it might be, tho particular special mention goes to the users of the word 'sassie'. Isn't that civic nationalism just great?

What was quite surprising was the numbers of new no-ers who have suddenly come out of the woodwork to voice their opinions, and where reading between the lines it was pretty clear they felt 'safe' to voice their opinions (perhaps for the first time) around news of JK's donation.

And even more surprising was that, for the very first time (in 5+ months of reading newspaper comments on this subject), I saw someone who plans voting yes properly take Salmond to task (to the point of blaming him for the total failure of yes) instead of being willing to voice the most weak and pointless criticisms. It actually gave me hope that in the future opinion in Scotland might actually be ready for indy (rather than voting for it anyway but not being ready).

JK Rowling's statement was well written (it would have been a little diapopointng if it wasn't!) & pretty well argued.

I thought she made the "No Thanks" case fairly well.

If it raises the tone & level of the debate; that's all to the good.

Salmond's biggest flaw, in my opinion is that he is unable to decide whether to fight this campaign as effectively another election campaign rather than campaigning on the "bigger issues" - the principles, the vision rather than individual policies.

He is of course not alone in this, the campaign is often reported in this way, particularly in the UK media.

Meanwhile there is a whole other campaign going on which has largely by-passed the SNP or invited them along as guest from time to time.

But those observing from the South through the eyes of the UK media only get rare glimpses of that.

Edited June 12, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

it's the one and only solid policy of the white paper - the very thing you're voting to endorse.

I'm sure you'd still be pretending otherwise (if Scotland votes yes) when this tax cuts for the richest came in.

What does bear relation to reality is the SG delivering not a single jot of social justice when it has the powers to, but you'd rather forget about that solid fact as it doesn't fit the false narrative of the utopian left-leaning Scotland.

we are having a referendum

not an election.

I thought you were clever enough to spot the difference.

Edited June 12, 2014 by LJS

[russycarps]

What reality is that, Russy?

the reality that the majority of people in scotland are not interested about your raving nationalistic obsession with an independent scotland. It just isnt a priority to the majority of people any more.

Or are you suggesting that the No vote + the people who cant be bothered to vote at all will be beaten by the Yes vote?

Edited June 12, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

Salmond's biggest flaw, in my opinion is that he is unable to decide whether to fight this campaign as effectively another election campaign rather than campaigning on the "bigger issues" - the principles, the vision rather than individual policies.

I disagree. The 'vision' thing is where he's gone so very wrong.

'Vision' can only ever be noises about how fantastic (or not, from the no side) someone thinks it'll be - and by-nature enters the world of bullshit.

A more honest and straightforwards "we'll work hard together to build a better society" is something that is ideology free and bullshit free, and is an idea that all people of Scotland would understand and be able to feel comfortable with if there's a yes result even if they're a no voter.

Salmond has gone for a divisive line instead, playing up an imagined nastiness of others towards Scotland in the standard way of nationalists - and as you yourself have pretty much said, that makes you as a yes voter feel uncomfortable. They'll be others in a similar thought place to yourself who have been swayed to 'no' by that, while it will have got yes few if any extra votes (cos the haters are always gonna hate).

But Salmond has 30+ years of practice of the nasty-others routine and it's got him to where he is, so he's not going to drop it now. Or even after independence, if that happens.

Meanwhile there is a whole other campaign going on which has largely by-passed the SNP or invited them along as guest from time to time.

But those observing from the South through the eyes of the UK media only get rare glimpses of that.

And Scotland too by the sounds of everything you've said, cos otherwise this fantastically effective 'grassroots' thing would be having a meaningful impact on opinion (the relatively minor changes in the polls says that it's not).

Perhaps the 'grassroots' thing is thought of as so effective because it's preaching mainly to the already-converted?

[eFestivals]

we are having a referendum

not an election.

I thought you were clever enough to spot the difference.

after a referendum you have an election.

You know, like the elections you've already had and where the govt you've voted for hasn't delivered a single jot of social justice - despite having the powers to.

But suddenly post-indy, the people of Scotland will want and vote differently to now?

Care to share with me why you think the world turns on its head to make tories vote socialist in a post-indy Scotland?

[LJS]

the reality that the majority of people in scotland are not interested about your raving nationalistic obsession with an independent scotland. It just isnt a priority to the majority of people any more.

Or are you suggesting that the No vote + the people who cant be bothered to vote at all will be beaten by the Yes vote?

I think you are wrong.

I think the level of interest & political engagement in Scotland is higher than at any time in my life.

As to whether yes will win...at the end of the day I fear not. It is a huge decision & a massive responsibility.

Although I have decided to vote yes & guess I am unlikely to change my mind, I still constantly question whether I am doing the right thing & read vast swathes of material from both sides & neither.

In a way the people I distrust in this debate are those on either side who have no doubts...that doesn't make sense to me.

I watched an interview with Tom Conti last night - although Scottish he has lived in London for 40 years. He said in a way he was glad he didn't have a vote as it was such a difficult decision.

[LJS]

I disagree. The 'vision' thing is where he's gone so very wrong.

'Vision' can only ever be noises about how fantastic (or not, from the no side) someone thinks it'll be - and by-nature enters the world of bullshit.

A more honest and straightforwards "we'll work hard together to build a better society" is something that is ideology free and bullshit free, and is an idea that all people of Scotland would understand and be able to feel comfortable with if there's a yes result even if they're a no voter.

I think maybe you misunderstand what I mean by vision - I specifically do not mean airy fairy promises of a jam- filled future.

Indeed your phrase "we'll work hard together to build a better society" would perfectly fit with the sort of vision I am taking about. A vision of how we can have a better society, but not necessarily a richer society, Whilst being clear that there will be effort & commitment required.

Pretty much perfect in my eyes - well done Neil!

[eFestivals]

I think maybe you misunderstand what I mean by vision - I specifically do not mean airy fairy promises of a jam- filled future.

Indeed your phrase "we'll work hard together to build a better society" would perfectly fit with the sort of vision I am taking about. A vision of how we can have a better society, but not necessarily a richer society, Whilst being clear that there will be effort & commitment required.

ahhh, the problem is tho that once you get into specifics, that starts to lose yes some support.

Because while I don't doubt there's many like you who would rather see greater social justice, there's also plenty who don't wish to be the ones who might pay for that greater social justice - and keeping "their own" resources for them and theirs is going to trump giving that to others.

And this is precisely why no greater social justice has been delivered by 17 years of the SG - because opinion where it really counts is in just about the same place as it is for the rest of the UK.

It might sound a bit odd to say it, but Salmond's best chance would have been to try and keep politics out of the indy debate, to keep it 100% focused on the idea of only "Scotland to decide what Scotland does".

[russycarps]

I think you are wrong.

I think the level of interest & political engagement in Scotland is higher than at any time in my life.

As to whether yes will win...at the end of the day I fear not. It is a huge decision & a massive responsibility.

Although I have decided to vote yes & guess I am unlikely to change my mind, I still constantly question whether I am doing the right thing & read vast swathes of material from both sides & neither.

In a way the people I distrust in this debate are those on either side who have no doubts...that doesn't make sense to me.

I watched an interview with Tom Conti last night - although Scottish he has lived in London for 40 years. He said in a way he was glad he didn't have a vote as it was such a difficult decision.

I hope I'm wrong and that the turn out is 90%+ I really do.

I just cant see it.

I know you live in scotland, but you cant possibly hope you know every scot in scotland so it is a bit odd when you speak on behalf of the whole nation. You have a romantic vision of your fellow scots that just does not seem to be a reality. I wish all scots were like you, then you really would have a great nation and I'd move there myself. Sadly though, I just do not believe they are all like you. Far from it.

I recognise comfortablynumbs frustration. When you want something so bad but people just arent interested, well it's a killer.

I wish everyone would be a vegetarian, but the apathy and hostility you face when you try and convince people...I guess it's comparable to what you yessers have to put up with

[eFestivals]

I think you are wrong.

I think the level of interest & political engagement in Scotland is higher than at any time in my life.

There's a big mistake on the yes side of believing that once a person engages they will by-default come to the indy side.

There's certainly a big chunk of this sort of arrogance on the yes side - as displayed in the often-used words "there's not a single good reason to vote no". The suggestion that every thinking person concludes to vote yes is a part of the major failing of the yes campaign, and part of why I believe that it would be better for Scotland to vote no at this moment in time.