The Dirty Independence Question

[CHRLY]

I reckon Darling came across very weak in the end, it almost didn't matter what was said but with that crowd. I saw the guardian poll and it said 71% thought Salmond 'won'. I reckon with someone with a more aggressive debating style would have done better.

[eFestivals]

I reckon Darling came across very weak in the end, it almost didn't matter what was said but with that crowd. I saw the guardian poll and it said 71% thought Salmond 'won'. I reckon with someone with a more aggressive debating style would have done better.

Oh, Darling was defo pretty dreadful from what i saw (didn't see much of it) .... but i also saw that when Darling tried to get to the real point of what he was saying that Salmond shouted him down so that he never got to give his actual point.

For example, I caught the 'plan B' stuff at around 8.45 (half-time of the footie ). The way that Salmond managed to wangle it, it would have left anyone hearing the currency stuff for the first time believing that all currency options are equal, and that the inter-change of words between Darling and Salmond was about whether iScotland could have any currency at all.

The dafter folk will have already been sucked-in by the bullshit of either side (whichever side best matches their prejudices), so I doubt very much has changed as a result of last night. Still no plan b from Salmond, and I doubt that went unnoticed by the undecided.

Still, I'm sure it was nice for Salmond to finally win a poll, even if it wasn't one that meant anything.

Edited August 26, 2014 by eFestivals

[CHRLY]

Yeh it hasn't changed much by the looks of it. Couldn't believe the cheer that Salmond got when Darling said 'of course we'd be able to use the pound' as if it was some gigantic triumph for the yes campaign.

[LJS]

I'm heading off for Engerlaand (end of the road) tomorrow bedecked with my yes badges so wish me luck

So I thought I'd enlighten you with the reason why Darling's "of course you can use the pound" was met with such applause.

You see they have been telling us stupid Scots that we won't be able to use the pound.

& i don't mean the pound in a currency union -I mean the pound full stop. Which as you all know is a big fat fib.

Here's what one leaflet with Johan Lamont's lovely face on it said:

"Q; what will the currency be in an independent Scotland?

A: No one knows but it won't be the pound...it would have to be the Euro or a separate Scottish currency"

That's pretty clear isn't it?

there are more examples here if you can bear to look

http://wingsoverscotland.com/out-of-the-loop/#more-60530

So although all of us guys on here have been well aware for a long time that Scotland can use the £ if it wants - we have been told something very different.

Apparently as with every other currency option, Sterlingisation is a recipe for disaster - Funny no one told the Adam Smith Institute that

But a new report, written by the research director of the Adam Smith Institute, Sam Bowman, has argued that sterlingisation - using the pound without the use of a central bank - would be "a significant improvement on Scotland's current arrangements".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28869991

Oh & here he is on the Telly

& if anyone really cares to read the original piece, here it is http://www.adamsmith.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ScotlandSterlingPaperPress.pdf

Enjoy

Ooh, since I'm making a guest appearance on here, I am sure you will all be disappointed if I don't tell you what I thought of last night's debate.

Well Salmond roasted darling - he had him on the ropes a number of times. successfully pinned him to the ropes on heartland labour issues such as welfare, poverty & the NHS. Salmond addressed the currency issue enough to make darling look like a twat when he continually banged on about it.

My fellow yes campaigners are cock - a - hoop and many think the tide is turning

However the question is will it sway the undecided voters & I am far from sure that 2 middle aged men in suits shouting at each other will impress them massively - we'll see

it was a bit like this

[LJS]

You are just like the fuck wits in last night audience....

Anybody can use any currency... No one has been saying you can't use this... But the suggestion that Scotland would realistically use the pound WITHOUT a currency union is almost unthinkable outside of a VERY short term move. When people say you can't use the pound they have meant you can't use the pound AND have a currency union.

Its amazed me this has past the yes vote by. I don't think it did but its been a useful tool for Salmond to play with other the last couple of weeks given the clapping seals like yourself ready to jump off the cliff with him.

If it wasn't so cringe worthy it would be funny!

Did you read what I said?

or are you a fuck wit?

[LJS]

Sorry I forgot... I am not talking with a bunch of people who actually WANT independence....

You still think you can be independent and use someone else's central bank...

I mean whatever. If that is where you are coming from that is just another form of bat shit crazy I can't be arsed going into.

I suppose it gets you ready for the Euro and your new Berlin masters...

No comment on the clear lies from BT?

or what the Adam Smith dude has to say ?

just the usual fuckwittery

[russycarps]

Ha ha brilliant stuff from LJS. Despite many patient explanations on here about what a currency union is, he STILL doesn't understand it.

I'm glad darling got humiliated the other night. The praise he had been receiving was nauseating. Never forget he was part of one of the most loathsome governments we've ever seen

[eFestivals]

Yeh it hasn't changed much by the looks of it. Couldn't believe the cheer that Salmond got when Darling said 'of course we'd be able to use the pound' as if it was some gigantic triumph for the yes campaign.

From what I've read in the last 24 hours, BT have had leaflets that have said iScotland couldn't use the pound, so perhaps that's why it got that reaction?

But yeah, even if BT have had those leaflets, it's still rather laughable. The name and look of currency matters feck all, it's the effect of the choice of currency that matters.

[eFestivals]

It was really embarrassing ... Scotland using the pound has never been an issue... Anyone can use any currency if they wish!! This was never denied.... Its Scotland using the pound with a currency union which is the issue....

I don't think a lot of yes voters understand it to be frank.... The way they clapped like seals only makes me think they are a right bunch of fuck wits...

It's very clear that so very few understand the currency issue - LJS included if I've read between the lines of his posts correctly.

The general suggestions by yes-ers is that the refusal by rUK to have a CU is either "spite" against Scotland or a denial to Scotland of its rightful assets (tho currency itself is not an asset, it's a govt institution).

Never do they pick up on the fact that what Scotland is asking for has nothing to do with anything of the past, but is instead asking rUK to guarantee into the future all iScottish debts.

And in return for that guarantee of English money for iScotland, all iScotland offers in return is to not rob rUK.

Further, those yes-ers say that CU would be a temporary solution, whereby iScotland would cut and run when it suited iScotland - without any regard to rUK at that time.

So, who is up for guaranteeing the debts of the guy down the street who says he'll rob you if you won't do what he says, while also saying he'll shit on you from a great height once he's got his own shit together?

Yeah, us English, we're driven by spite.

Edited August 27, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Still on the bt website today

"We know that If we leave the UK, we leave the UK pound."

Now at the very least that is misleading.

[eFestivals]

So I thought I'd enlighten you with the reason why Darling's "of course you can use the pound" was met with such applause.

You see they have been telling us stupid Scots that we won't be able to use the pound.

& i don't mean the pound in a currency union -I mean the pound full stop. Which as you all know is a big fat fib.

And Salmond's demand of a CU - a demand that English money guarantees iScottish debts for no payback - that's already been refused? What's that?

So although all of us guys on here have been well aware for a long time that Scotland can use the £ if it wants - we have been told something very different.

you've also been aware for a very long time that it's the shittest option you have for a currency - your own glorious 'independent' (snigger) fiscal commission told you so.

But you seem to have forgotten that, and suddenly seem to have much less respect for that fiscal commission's words of wisdom. Why's that then?

Apparently as with every other currency option, Sterlingisation is a recipe for disaster - Funny no one told the Adam Smith Institute that

your own fiscal commission did.

Meanwhile, is the brave new socialist iScotland now taking recommendations from the raving right-wing nutters at the Adam Smith Institute, who are massively to the right of the tories you say you reject?

The reason why the Adam Smith Institute recommend it is because it will destroy your socialised economy to usher in rampant capitalism.

But hey, you just ignore that.

& if anyone really cares to read the original piece, here it is http://www.adamsmith.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ScotlandSterlingPaperPress.pdf

Enjoy

why stop with just the one ASI opinion? Why don't you read a bit of everything else they say?

Well Salmond roasted darling - he had him on the ropes a number of times. successfully pinned him to the ropes on heartland labour issues such as welfare, poverty & the NHS.

And yet Salmond can make no better guarantees of these things than Darling can.

All things are possible, but only when you have the finances to deliver all things.

Yes-ers slag off UK debts and say that shows the UK as a basket case, and yet forget that Salmond's own numbers show that iScotland is a bigger basket case.

And then those yes-ers say "let us join your basket case in a CU, else your basket case will be bankrupt".

And they think they have a rational argument.

Salmond addressed the currency issue enough to make darling look like a twat when he continually banged on about it.

Salmond wouldn't let Darling finish his answer. I wonder why?

And Salmond didn't address the currency argument at all.

[eFestivals]

Still on the bt website today

"We know that If we leave the UK, we leave the UK pound."

Now at the very least that is misleading.

But so is Salmond's suggestion that "using the pound" is a victory for him because he's getting what he's demanded.

There's "using the pound" and then there's "using the pound".

They're not the same thing, and one has devastating effects on the Scottish economy, as your own fiscal commission has told you.

[LJS]

Scottish Labour party website today

"It is now clear the only way to keep the pound is to keep the UK."

[eFestivals]

No comment on the clear lies from BT?

or what the Adam Smith dude has to say ?

just the usual fuckwittery

I'm just loving the yes-ers recent conversion to raving right wing nutters.

Or perhaps you're not a raving right wing nutter like the Adam Smith Institute is, and the fuckwittery is all your own?

[eFestivals]

Scottish Labour party website today

"It is now clear the only way to keep the pound is to keep the UK."

Salmond's fiscal commission: "iScotland is fucked if it uses the pound without a CU".

Which of those two is right, LJS?

[eFestivals]

I'm heading off for Engerlaand (end of the road) tomorrow

In all seriousness LJS, if you're passing Bristol and you're able to manage it, I'll be exceedingly happy to buy you a pint or three - where you *will* discover that we're in much the same place, but that one of us is doing financial reality.

But whatever, enjoy EotR.

Edited August 27, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

In all seriousness LJS, if you're passing Bristol and you're able to manage it, I'll be exceedingly happy to buy you a pint or three - where you *will* discover that we're in much the same place, but that one of us is doing financial reality.

But whatever, enjoy EotR.

Thanks Neil, sadly am on a pretty tight schedule.

I think you will enjoy this.

It's bt's attempt to woo the little ladies.

The woman who made up her mind: http://youtu.be/OLAewTVmkAU

[eFestivals]

300 years ago, Scotland joined the union after its leaders bankrupted the country with a poorly thought out and poorly executed plan.

It'll all be different this time. They have a plan of substance and a leader of integrity.

[LJS]

lol that is pretty cringe worthy but its noworse than the "yippie kay yay mother fucker" line you get from the yes campaign

Wow! Yuppie Kay yay mother fucker?

Excellent.

Now off you go & take your medication.

There's a good chap

[Comfy Bean]

I'm loving the sheep-like cut & paste campaigning comfy. There's a whole army of you doing the same thing.

How come none of you are c&p-ing the numbers I posted in this thread, tho? Might it be that they make an iScotland look far less impressive, what with the set of numbers I gave actually meaning something of much more substance than your own numbers?

Anyway, well done Alex, you've won something. Isn't it a shame tho that economic reality means the vision can never win out, as that needs substance not shite.

I`m not saying the numbers are a 100% accurate ( don`t imagine anyone actually counted the pigs ) but there is an underlying point that Scotland has more to offer than just oil. I am pleased to hear that there is an " army " of people getting that information out there. Scotland has a whole lot to offer. This, and the consequences of a NO vote, seems to pass you by.

I liked your sheep analogy. Another way of looking at this referendum is that "we" have an opportunity to take a different direction and NOT follow the herd We CAN think for ourselves and have a government that we actually vote for taking decisions on our behalf but there you go, it`s all about opinions. I believe we would manage fine.

I agree that Salmond " won ". I doubt that many people will change their minds from NO to YES after watching but there will be some undecideds who atleast now have some info on trident, foodbanks, child poverty etc. Hopefully they will do their own research on the NHS, oil etc and then make their mind up instead of believing that they wont be able to pay their mortgage or spend their wages and vote based on that shit.

Darling had a shocker. I almost felt sorry for him when he stumbled through his pre-prepared closing statement rambling on about stuff that Salmond HAD covered ( to a point ) minutes before. Embarrassing stuff.

[Comfy Bean]

I'm glad darling got humiliated the other night. The praise he had been receiving was nauseating. Never forget he was part of one of the most loathsome governments we've ever seen

The sun is shining, I have a day off, and I agree with you sir

The way he sneered " I wouldn`t want to be Panama for 5 minutes " and mocked that Ireland and Iceland are " bust " was cringeworthy stuff. The wee wummin in the audience getting him telt on his comments on the NHS had me chuckling. He was all over the place. Heres the story she was referring to.....

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7709-alistair-darling-paid-thousands-by-nhs-privatisation-company

[Comfy Bean]

So, was last night a game changer? Are Yes now on for a win?

If so, i'll get the popcorn in. It's going to be fun.

Still looking unlikely. The closest poll I can see today has no on 50% yes on 39% with 11% undecided.

Talk of a 75-80% turnout which is pretty decent.

[Comfy Bean]

You are just like the fuck wits in last night audience....

Anybody can use any currency... No one has been saying you can't use the pound in this way... But the suggestion that Scotland would realistically use the pound WITHOUT a currency union is almost unthinkable outside of a VERY short term move. When people say you can't use the pound they have meant you can't use the pound AND have a currency union.

Are you seriously thinking using the pound minus a currency union is a real option ? REALLY ?

Its amazed me this has past the yes vote by. I don't think it did but its been a useful tool for Salmond to play with over the last couple of weeks given the clapping seals like yourself ready to jump off the cliff with him.

If it wasn't so cringe worthy it would be funny!

Probably best to leave your opening and closing lines free from further comment but wanted to add my view on a currency union. IF......Scotland votes YES I think that there will be a currency union as it will be in everyone`s interest. The markets will demand it and Osbourne`s first job will be to persuade them that he was just playing party politics over this. Scotland will agree to pay it`s fair share of the debt in return. We should all remember that there will be a shit load of stuff that needs to be negotiated and it will be important that this is seen to happen ( back to the markets again ). We must remember that these negotiations will only take place if Salmond has won. He will be in a very strong position and the negotiations will play out in front of the world not in some darkened room.

IF....it comes to this do you think Osbourne would refuse a currency union in return for Scotland taking its fair share of the debt ? I expect things like the timescale for the removal of Trident might be another bargaining chip, not to mention all that pesky oil.

[Comfy Bean]

Read a few articles today on the damage Darling is doing to Labour up our way. I had forgotten about his off handed remarks on trident about how we could " just tow the submarines a few miles south ". His stuff on the welfare reforms, nuclear weapons, child poverty and the NHS privatisation were not what we expect from our Labour politicians. I`m thinking his own party have hung him out to dry a bit with what Andy Burnham is saying about the NHS. He must have realised when he accepted this gig that he was going to have to stand up in Scotland and defend tory policies. I expect he will get his victory though

[Comfy Bean]

I am not reading anymore news today - it`s too depressing. In order to " stiffen up " the BT campaign after Darlings performance the other night BT are set to roll out Gordon Brown tonight. Him and Darling are to appear together to assure the people of Scotland that we are better together on all things financial.

Oh the irony

http://www.debtbombshell.com/