The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

I think that a couple of the posts recently from Neil have been a bit below the belt and I am not surprised you found it a bit too personal.

LJS says that his choice of how to vote is a good thing for his kids, and yet plenty disagree with him on that - the majority of people in Scotland by the evidence to date. The majority think he's doing a bad thing to his (and everyone else's) kids.

Why is it below the belt to post a view that' differs to LJS's? Sorry, but my opinions are no less valid than his.

I thought people in Scotland weren't taking opposing views so personally, nor dis-respecting differing opinions? But hey, perhaps us people in England don't understand what's going on in Scotland?

[LJS]

Cool. Do just remember tho that if they disagree with you they're no more 'feart' than you are 'stupid', and that the self-determination of Scotland is delivered via a 'no' vote no less than it is by a 'yes' vote.

Not a problem Neil, I respect the views of those who disagree with me. I don't accuse them of being feart (or abusing their children)

Spent a very pleasant even discussing the referendum with an undecided colleague over a few beers last night.

No one insulted anyone & we parted on good terms. & no I didn't convince him to vote yes but I am hopeful.

Edited August 23, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Is this, as we say in the North, a ewe turn ?

I`m not trawling back through to check but were you not the man who defended the McCrone stuff on several occasions ?

But now your story is there is nothing to defend ?

Did you not defend " lying " giving examples on why/when it is ok in your book.....sure one involved your neighbour being a burglar or something.

I'd fallen for the myth that a concious decision had been taken to withhold something that would normally have been published, as is the McCrone myth in Scotland and has 'escaped' to influence people like me.

It turns out the myth is just another Nat myth. Why I'm actually surprised to discover that is itself actually rather surprising.

Meanwhile, if the myth had been true, I can understand the justification. You don't tell the man who might rob you where you've hidden your treasure; an iScotland will act no differently to that.

It's a hell of a lot easier to justify than is Alex's massive lie to the Scottish people about the EU legal advice he never had. That's a lie designed for only HIS benefit (to steal people's sovereign right thru their vote from them), whereas the mythical lie of the McCrone report was a lie for the irrefutable benefit of all within the state.

But hey, just pretend that Alex isn't as democractically hideous as anything Westminster might do.

I know, I know, the election isn't about Alex.

Yes right. So why won't any of you prove it by holding him to account for his bullshit?

[eFestivals]

Not a problem Neil, I respect the views of those who disagree with me. I don't accuse them of being feart (or abusing their children)

Oh c'mon, don't be so narrow minded.

You choice of vote is either a good thing for your kids, or a bad thing for your kids (it's unlikely to be 100% the same as now, after all).

If someone thinks the opposite of you, they think that you're doing a bad thing to Scotland's kids (which includes your own). If you say you respect that, then respect it.

Me saying that I think an iScotland would be shitting on it's kids is a view you've just said you respect. So respect it, and don't make yourself a personal victim of the differences you're wanting to create.

Spent a very pleasant even discussing the referendum with an undecided colleague over a few beers last night.

No one insulted anyone & we parted on good terms. & no I didn't convince him to vote yes but I am hopeful.

It seems to have passed you by but I've insulted no one. I'm merely expressed an opinion of the real-life possibilities in blunt language.

Just because you don't like the possibilities your choice might cause doesn't make any reference to the consequences an insult of you. Get over it.

Edited August 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Right so we are all agreed on one thing. Despite the many sacrifices paid all around the world for the right to govern your own country, Scotland looks unlikely to put a cross in a box that would allow us to take responsibility for our own decisions. NO THANKS looks like being our answer

Oh dear.

Voting 'no' is no less Scotland taking responsibility for its own decisions than if the vote is 'yes'.

The vote itself is self-determination. Self-determination does not arrive only after you've voted 'yes'.

It's sad that many yes-ers cannot recognise the self-determination they say they crave for Scotland - and their inability to respect Scotland's self-determination and its democratic choice will be in full view the day after a 'no' vote.

I can only see one " game changer ". Our beloved Alex is going to have to fall on his sword ( perhaps literally ) live on the BBC on Monday night.

I'm in a right dilemma about Monday night ... cos it's the City/Liverpool match.

(I think the footie is going to win out).

I don't believe that Alex doing that would positively change things, it would do the opposite. The fact that Alex is beyond any criticism shows just how much of the yes support is firmly fixed to his person.

A decent performance with some actual substance would have a much greater effect.

Unfortunately for Alex, suddenly inventing a bit of substance with 3 weeks to go in an 80-year campaign is probably not going to convince many people. The substance should have been a part of the campaign all along.

A speech that would bring a tear to a glass eye about how he has been honored / very proud to lead us to the eve of Independence / be our First Minister but it is now time for the ( younger ) people of Scotland to take centre stage / new dawn etc blahblahblah could yet get us closer to an unlikely victory.

Avoiding the substance that an iScotland needs is not going to swing it.

Both on here and in every poll King Eck takes a " doo-ing ". With defeat almost certain he is weeks away from a messy end as the SNP will be planning to have him out asap. He is always one of the main reasons given by people voting NO. This is madness but it is what it is.

Not 'him' so much as the lack of substance to the campaign that he fronts. which does ultimately come back to him of course .... but as you yes-ers like to say "it's not about him".

I cannot think of anything else now that could get a bit of momentum behind YES.

Cameron gambled on the 1 question and it looks like paying off. I think that Salmond may now need to gamble with his career........

Thoughts ? Can anyone else see any other " game changer " ?

Scotland the victim, denied self-determination by Cameron who gave them a self-determining vote they'd self-determinately voted to have.

Or alternatively, the true story....

Salmond gambled with the one question, and the Scottish people supported him with that.

The self-determination you've already had, that you cannot recognise. How's it gonna work out post-indy?

Edited August 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I realised that I had promised to reply to you Mr beard, so I will make brief return to the thread to do so.

I appreciate your contributions as you make sensible & reasoned points & don't engage in point scoring. I assume you have a vote as you say you live in Edinburgh.

What do I mean by a better society? I mean a society that prioritises the elimination of poverty & equality of opportunity.

In theory an independent Scotland is not more able to do this than the UK.

In practice, I can't envisage a UK government that can begin to deliver this. I have asked on this thread a number of times for people to talk me through how it is likely to happen.

I'm stll waiting.

How long might you be waiting in an iScotland? It's no more guaranteed via Holyrood than via Westminster.

In both cases, one major part is having the healthy finances in place to be able to be able to deliver the dream.

There's little to suggest that an iScotland could match the financial position that it gets via Westminster.

There's much to suggest that an iScotland will have to make huge cuts in services, because of its finances.

So even if the will does actually exist (which I personally doubt) within Scotland to deliver your 'better' dream, without the finances it doesn't happen anyway.

Scotland cannot be wished or hoped 'better'. Scotland has to make itself better.

[Comfy Bean]

Ok.........

So I said this, as quoted it in your own post :

" I think that a couple of the posts recently from Neil have been a bit below the belt and I am not surprised you found it a bit too personal. "

To which you responded :

"Why is it below the belt to post a view that' differs to LJS's? Sorry, but my opinions are no less valid than his.

I thought people in Scotland weren't taking opposing views so personally, nor dis-respecting differing opinions? But hey, perhaps us people in England don't understand what's going on in Scotland? "......and breathe.

Now I`ve read my bit back back twice and the 2nd time I ran my finger slowly along the screen under my words.....

Can you show me where I said your opinion was less valid than anyone else`s ? Please be specific.

Happy to return to topic and leave it at this as I`m sure LJS doesn`t want us fighting over him but I was only offering my opinion ( which we agree is allowed ) and I accept that you disagree.

Anywayz...stop being so precious " A couple of your posts have been a bit below the belt "

I`m almost certain that we have both been on the end of much worse than comments like that on here. Have a good weekend.

[Comfy Bean]

I'm in a right dilemma about Monday night ... cos it's the City/Liverpool match.

(I think the footie is going to win out).

Salmond gambled with the one question, and the Scottish people supported him with that.

My view remains that Cameron " gambled " on the one question. He looks to have called it really well and the No Thanks vote will kill independence for at the very least a decade or two. The alternative options to yes on the paper ( i think ) would have won and momentum would have built towards full independence.

You need to have a quick squint at the polls if you think " Salmond gambled with the one question, and the Scottish people supported him with that."

If Scotland had voted YES ( or does I suppose ) then there are those who think that Cameron may have came under pressure over this and support for Boris Johnson may have grown so every cloud.............

Edit to add : I`m not disagreeing with you about the football.

Edited August 23, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

So even if the will does actually exist (which I personally doubt) within Scotland to deliver your 'better' dream, without the finances it doesn't happen anyway.

I disagree with both halves of this. ^^^^^

The will does exist but not yet in the numbers to make it happen.

Countries with a whole lot less money / finances that ours have managed to achieve a " better " and I`ll throw in " fairer " society.

[eFestivals]

Can you show me where I said your opinion was less valid than anyone else`s ? Please be specific.

in which case you see an opinion of perceived truth to be offensive.

Gawd knows how you're gonna cope with the actual reality of your choice of vote, then.

[eFestivals]

Edited August 24, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I disagree with both halves of this. ^^^^^

The will does exist but not yet in the numbers to make it happen.

Countries with a whole lot less money / finances that ours have managed to achieve a " better " and I`ll throw in " fairer " society.

So you truly believe that iScotland would very happily vote itself to pay much higher taxes?

?

:lol: :lol:

The very fact that no SG party has campaigned at the last SG elections on that basis proves you wrong; the fact that the SNP dropped such a pledge years ago shows how non-popular that idea is.

And what the SNP dropped was just a 1% rise. Good luck with being able to get away with such a small rise just to stand still, let alone the 'better' you're dreaming will be delivered at a price.

[Comfy Bean]

I'm actually thinking the debate stands a decent chance of being the more interesting watch.

Salmond can't be that shite again, can he? The one thing that both yes and no seem to share in this debate is the idea that Salmond is a shrewd operator (so shrewd that many yes-voting Scots have yet to realise how shrewd because they believe his every word, but there you go).

Shall we have a game of 'tory bingo' on Monday night, where we each take a punt on how many times Salmond mentions 'tory' (even tho you keep telling us it's not a general election where you're voting Salmond)?

And perhaps we could subtract from that how many times he mentions 'bigger Scottish deficit', and have the sum as the result?

(clue: it's the same number with or without the 2nd part. ).

Hopefully tonight will offer far more than last time ( from both sides ). Think we all agreed that Salmond " lost " the last one. He really needs a comfortable " victory " tonight. YES really need to find some momentum from somewhere.

Your right about the mentions of Tory though and I`ll raise you " best of both worlds " from Darling. I`m sure that there are many many people on both sides of the border that must shake their heads at all this "best" talk but there you go. Hopefully Salmond doesn`t bring the aliens into it this time and I fear we will have another stand off over his currency Plan B. As I said the last time, I thought Salmond was shit but I would defend anyone who goes into a negotiation and keeps his alternative ( worse for him ) Plan B under his hat. He should maybe ask Darling if we are really meant to believe that in the unlikely event of a YES vote the NO thankers would not enter into a CU just to spite / harm all sides ? Anyone who thinks there would not be an initial cu is just being silly - or trolling.

I`d like to see Salmond get across some of the consequences for Scotland if we vote NO. I see it as a nod to Dave and his policies and I also think he has to get into the heads of the labour voters. With YES currently so far behind he needs them to get it anywhere near close.

[LJS]

Keep the faith comfy

[Comfy Bean]

So you truly believe that iScotland would very happily vote itself to pay much higher taxes?

?

:lol: :lol:

The very fact that no SG party has campaigned at the last SG elections on that basis proves you wrong; the fact that the SNP dropped such a pledge years ago shows how non-popular that idea is.

And what the SNP dropped was just a 1% rise. Good luck with being able to get away with such a small rise just to stand still, let alone the 'better' you're dreaming will be delivered at a price.

You really don`t have much faith in us. Anyone reading this would think that the UK aren`t already in the shit. How much do we currently owe ? You always take the piss out of me any time I post about what a successful country Scotland should be with our vast resources. I think you normally claim it`s something to do with England paying subsidies for the wind farms. Here`s some more numbers for you to laugh at. :

Scotland represents just 8.3% of the UK population.

We have the following share of UK resources -

- 32% Land area

- 61% Sea area

- 90% Surface fresh water

- 65% North Sea natural gas production

- 96.5% North Sea crude oil production

- 47% Open cast coal production

- 81% Coal reserves at sites not yet in production

- 62% Timber production (green tonnes)

- 46% Total forest area (hectares)

- 92% Hydro electric production

- 40% Wind, wave, solar production

- 60% Fish Landings (total by Scottish vessels)

- 55% Fish Landings (total from Scottish waters)

- 30% Beef herd (breeding stock)

- 20% Sheep herd (breeding flock)

- 9% Dairy herd

- 10% Pig herd

- 15% Cereal holdings (hectares)

- 20% potato holdings (hectares)

All with 8.3% of the population! There are very few countries in the WORLD that rival Scotland's resources per head and in such rich diversity. We absolutely, unequivocally can be an extremely successful independent country.

[LJS]

I'm hoping for eck to phone in sick & be replaced by Tommy Sheridan,Dennis Canavan, or Jim sillars!

Any of them would eat darling for breakfast.

Only kidding about Tommy.

[LJS]

Comfy, psst,why don't you try this

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

[LJS]

Here's another one for you comfy

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/poll24.jpg

[CHRLY]

Chaotic this, so many interruptions can't believe anyone would be turned by it

[eFestivals]

Comfy, psst,why don't you try this

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

I don't try to do bad summaries like the BBC have done here, that you've been unable to spot.

I refer you to Alex's own numbers on his own website that prove the BBC's bad.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/03/7888

In 2012-13, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £47.6 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £48.1 billion (8.2% of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £53.1 billion (9.1% of UK total public sector revenue).

In 2012-13, total public sector expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the UK Government, Scottish Government and all other parts of the public sector, plus a per capita share of UK debt interest payments, was £65.2 billion. This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.

In 2012-13, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a deficit of £14.2 billion (11.2% of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £13.6 billion (10.6% of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £8.6 billion (5.9% of GDP) including an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue.

In 2012-13, the UK as a whole ran a current budget deficit, including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, of £91.9 billion (5.8% of GDP).

In 2012-13, Scotlands estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £17.6 billion (14.0% of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £17.1 billion (13.3% of GDP) when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £12.1 billion (8.3% of GDP) when a geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.

In 2012-13, the equivalent UK position including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, referred to in the UK Public Sector Accounts as net borrowing, was a deficit of £114.8 billion (or 7.3% of GDP).

[eFestivals]

I'm loving the sheep-like cut & paste campaigning comfy. There's a whole army of you doing the same thing.

How come none of you are c&p-ing the numbers I posted in this thread, tho? Might it be that they make an iScotland look far less impressive, what with the set of numbers I gave actually meaning something of much more substance than your own numbers?

Anyway, well done Alex, you've won something. Isn't it a shame tho that economic reality means the vision can never win out, as that needs substance not shite.

Still no plan B I see, and a mindless cheering audience who clearly think that the existence of the worst option is something worth cheering.

When LJS came into this discussion, it was all about the wonderful 'independent' (snigger) fiscal commission, and how their word was perfect and beyond criticism*. And as the discussion comes to it's end it's all about cheering iScotland into the worst of that fiscal commission's scenario's, like the massive negative economic impact onto Scotland doesn't matter.

Even two members of that wonderful 'independent' (snigger) fiscal commission have now even said the same - that it doesn't matter what currency iScotland uses (tell that to your bank manager, and your mortgage ).

All hail Joseph Stiglitz, the renowned economist, who is so accurate with his predictions that Greece didn't need a bail out. Oh hang on...

[eFestivals]

So, was last night a game changer? Are Yes now on for a win?

If so, i'll get the popcorn in. It's going to be fun.

Edited August 26, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Apparently not... Polling afterwards showed Don't knows didn't get the answers from Salmond they wanted...

I'm actually pleased to hear it. If people had got carried away by the cheering when Darling said Scotland could use the pound without a currency union as some sort of meaningful victory then that would have merely proven the electorate as not intellectually suitable to have this vote.

By all means, iScotland can use Sterling outside of a CU - but it does come at a BIG cost. Which is precisely why it was the least favoured option of Salmond's 'independent' (snigger) fiscal commission.

If people are happy to vote yes on that basis, I'm happy for them to do that - just as long as their countrymen are not pretending that all currency options are the same, as Salmond suggested last night.

[CHRLY]

I really wish it was Galloway up there instead of Darling last night

[eFestivals]

I really wish it was Galloway up there instead of Darling last night

Why? anyone who fell for the tory bollocks that Salmond spouted about Darling doesn't deserve their vote.