Football 2011-2012

[eFestivals]

Irish fans "welcoming" the English team.

it must be the deadest place in the world to attract those sorts of numbers of people to watch 25 people getting off a bus to walk into a hotel lobby.

[The Nal]

it must be the deadest place in the world to attract those sorts of numbers of people to watch 25 people getting off a bus to walk into a hotel lobby.

[eFestivals]

Anyone read Sol Campbells article in the Guardian? Strongly worded stuff.

Strongly worded idiot stuff.

This is the guy who announced his retirement nine months after he'd stopped playing because no one wanted him.

This is the guy who - from that article - clearly holds a MASSIVE grudge against the FA because he got too old and slow but didn't think he had.

This is the guy who said it could be a death sentence to go to the Euros, based on footage that could have been similarly obtained within English football.

Etc, etc, etc.

While I'm somewhat bemused and confused around what Woy has done with Rio, Woy clearly felt he could only take one of Terry & Rio without causing the squad to split into factions (which has happened previously, so I've been reading), and it's become the height of stupidity with the comments that some have made where they expected Rio to be called up before players on the stand-by list.

If it's one or the other of Terry and Rio, then it's blindingly obvious that Woy felt Terry was the player in better form &/or more able to play thru the tournament - which isn't any huge shock when you have Rio's own manager saying he can only play one game a week.

And on top of it all, guess who's not been training for around a month, and so isn't match fit to take to a tournament?

Campbell is moron, trying to get himself a media career. That's all there is to it.

[thetime]

looks like steve clarkes going to get announced for the wba in the next day or so. Will be intersting to see if he is just a good coach, for example like brian kidd or can make the final step to a good manager.

defoe also going home for a few days due to the death of his father, very very light on the striker front now with just wellbeck and carroll but I suppose young can play behind wellbeck.

[thetime]

Strongly worded idiot stuff.

This is the guy who announced his retirement nine months after he'd stopped playing because no one wanted him.

This is the guy who - from that article - clearly holds a MASSIVE grudge against the FA because he got too old and slow but didn't think he had.

This is the guy who said it could be a death sentence to go to the Euros, based on footage that could have been similarly obtained within English football.

Etc, etc, etc.

While I'm somewhat bemused and confused around what Woy has done with Rio, Woy clearly felt he could only take one of Terry & Rio without causing the squad to split into factions (which has happened previously, so I've been reading), and it's become the height of stupidity with the comments that some have made where they expected Rio to be called up before players on the stand-by list.

If it's one or the other of Terry and Rio, then it's blindingly obvious that Woy felt Terry was the player in better form &/or more able to play thru the tournament - which isn't any huge shock when you have Rio's own manager saying he can only play one game a week.

And on top of it all, guess who's not been training for around a month, and so isn't match fit to take to a tournament?

Campbell is moron, trying to get himself a media career. That's all there is to it.

[eFestivals]

Wouldnt it be the best for all concerned just to come out with the truth.

The truth might be *JUST* footballing reasons for all any of know.

Not everyone has to think that Rio is a fantastic irreplaceable player.

(and as far as it goes, while Kelly is inexperienced he has a fantastic record for the u21s, and if Johnson got permanently crocked today, Kelly would be right back for the next ten years. It's just a bit odd cos there's not so much central cover).

And when his own manager is saying he's not up to the tournament but the player is saying he is, who do you believe? I'd generally side with the manager with that.

(thing is, it's fergie - and he might be telling porkies for his own benefit).

It's certainly the case that Rio hasn't trained since the end of the season. Why call up a player who is sat there getting fat before a player who has kept training?

Like it or not - and Rio certainly doesn't - these would have been his last games for England if he'd made the squad.

[The Nal]

The truth might be *JUST* footballing reasons for all any of know.

Not everyone has to think that Rio is a fantastic irreplaceable player.

(and as far as it goes, while Kelly is inexperienced he has a fantastic record for the u21s, and if Johnson got permanently crocked today, Kelly would be right back for the next ten years. It's just a bit odd cos there's not so much central cover).

[eFestivals]

Theres no way anyone can say, with or without training, that Martin Kelly is a better player than Rio.

Get out of here.

The only time someone could apply that meaningfully is in regard to being centre back - because Kelly is not a centre back.

That's the only part which makes it a strange choice (when considering the lack of central cover), but even then it's far less strange when factoring in that Woy had named his covering players and Rio wasn't one of them.

If fergie's words are true (and why shouldn't Woy believe him?) then Rio doesn't offer the cover he'd be taken to cover, which makes leaving him behind a bit of a no-brainer.

Add in Rio's claims of fitness two years ago - for him to then remain in his suit because he wasn't - and the fuck-up which was Ledley King getting inevitably crocked too - and footballing reasons, the need to have players who can actually play, stands up pretty strongly.

I'm not saying Woy has called it right, but it's not all as nutty as Rio fans want to present it as being. Woys claim of 'footballing reasons' stands up to scrutiny with bias removed from the consideration, even if your or my choice might have been different.

[thetime]

Ferdinand shouldn't be there... Just ask Alex... Plus never liked him since the missed tests...

[The Nal]

Since when was Rio an inform fit player again.... That one must of sailed me straight by...

[Kowalski]

Surprised at the Rio/Kelly debate.

John Terry is the one who shouldn't be in the England squad, he has had an awful season and will have his arse handed to him on a plate several times during Euro 2012. It is at England's expense that he is included.

Happy days

[eFestivals]

He was very good, with a few great performances, for the last half of the season. Injury free too.

but only able tyo play oner game a week according to his manager, which ain't so much good in a competition where teams play two games a week.

Also, Neil, England have as many centre backs now as right backs. Doesn't make sense.

I agree, it makes no sense - but only if you look at the situation as it now while ignoring how things got to this situation.

Woy picked a squad, and picked covering players for where he felt they might be needed as cover. Rio wasn't one of them, so Rio stopped training at the end of the season. Things have since gone tits up with the squad, and in a different way to how Woy was, I guess, expecting.

Does he take a player who can't play in all the games, and who isn't fit, and who is starting to make Michael Owen look less of a sicknote than he is (Rio's much more likely to get injured than other players), or does he take a player who can play in all the games and who is fit and who's far less likely to get injured?

I'm not entirely sure what I'd do in Woy's position, but it's far less nonsensical when put in full context than you're wanting to believe via your Rio-love.

[eFestivals]

John Terry is the one who shouldn't be in the England squad, he has had an awful

Terry is defo fallen some from what he was at best, but that's even more the case with Rio.

It's not a wide gap, but I'd defo take Terry before Rio when everything about both player's form/fitness/injuries is taken into account.

[The Nal]

It's not a wide gap, but I'd defo take Terry before Rio when everything about both player's form/fitness/injuries is taken into account.

[kaosmark2]

Terry is defo fallen some from what he was at best, but that's even more the case with Rio.

It's not a wide gap, but I'd defo take Terry before Rio when everything about both player's form/fitness/injuries is taken into account.

[eFestivals]

My theory as to why Terry was taken is that Woy trusted in his partnership with Cahill. They're used to playing together at Chelski and it just generally makes sense to go for a proven partnership. Jones and Rio have barely played together at Man U, so of the players he wanted to take, Terry had a partner, Rio didn't.

Of course, now Cahill's injured, that benefit falls apart

your theory might well be right.

And while that planned-for benefit has now been lost, having set the squad out that way initially - including Rio's absence - there's a fairly logical reason for continuing along the same path, even tho a decent case can be made for now including Rio.

While how Woy has done things might not be how some others would have done things, I can't see it as definitely being the anti-Rio discrimination thing that some are now insisting it must be. The 'footballing reasons' thing still stands up to scrutiny if people are able to put aside who they'd have chosen if they were manager instead of Woy.

Mostly the fuss around this is being kicked up either by Utd fans who'd still be picking Rio in ten years when he's been lying on a beach for 5+ years, or by Terry haters, or people wanting to push a "the FA are racists" line.

After all, there's probably no two managers at the top level who'd have picked the same 23 players as any other manager, and that's made clear by ignoring the Rio thing and just considering Woy's other choices - some of which most of us think are somewhat strange.

[eFestivals]

Both have had ups and downs. Last time I saw Terry play, against Liverpool, he got nutmegged three times in ten minutes, played two shite back passes and slipped for one of the goals. Dreadful performance.

Yep, Terry was dreadful in that game but it's not like he's not had many other dreadful games over the years - the one that sticks in my mind was one where he rugby-tackled someone on the half-way line (where other parts of his play that day were dreadful too).

Like all players, there's good and bad games, and while Terry's form is dropping on average as he gets older he's still one of the best (if not 'the best') English centre backs most of the time.

He may be a better pick than Rio, but hes hardly Franco Baresi.

Neither are Baresi.

Their defensive abilities might be pretty similar, but I reckon there's few who'd argue against the idea that Terry brings more to a team in an all-round capacity.

I also think that the days of wanting both on the field at the same time are very long gone. With both at their career-best maybe, but those days are long gone, and they're too similar in style and speed. You'd only want one of those lumbering hulks on the field today unless you're planning on playing 10 in defence.

And apparently a lot of the squad don't like him.

I reckon even his mother hates him.

[kaosmark2]

your theory might well be right.

And while that planned-for benefit has now been lost, having set the squad out that way initially - including Rio's absence - there's a fairly logical reason for continuing along the same path, even tho a decent case can be made for now including Rio.

While how Woy has done things might not be how some others would have done things, I can't see it as definitely being the anti-Rio discrimination thing that some are now insisting it must be. The 'footballing reasons' thing still stands up to scrutiny if people are able to put aside who they'd have chosen if they were manager instead of Woy.

Mostly the fuss around this is being kicked up either by Utd fans who'd still be picking Rio in ten years when he's been lying on a beach for 5+ years, or by Terry haters, or people wanting to push a "the FA are racists" line.

After all, there's probably no two managers at the top level who'd have picked the same 23 players as any other manager, and that's made clear by ignoring the Rio thing and just considering Woy's other choices - some of which most of us think are somewhat strange.

[eFestivals]

if Terry's in better fitness, then he's the one that should go, however unbearable a c**t he may be.

yup, that's pretty much how I see it too. It's one or other of them rather than both, as they've both slowed down too much in recent times for any half-decent team to be happy with both on the field.

And while Terry might still be half-carrying a temporary injury (hamstring or whatever it was), the simple fact is that Rio is now as good as permanently crocked. He might be worth having in a club squad in that state, but it's far less justifiable in a tournament squad where the games come thick and fast, and within a national squad where players aren't so used to each other and there's benefits from fielding the same defence in each game as much as is possible.

[thetime]

So who will partner terry? Lescott?

[kaosmark2]

So who will partner terry? Lescott?

[eFestivals]

So who will partner terry? Lescott?

that'd be my guess for the France and Sweden games, and dependent how much we're needing the points it might be Jones or Smalling for Ukraine (just to give them a run out).

[thetime]

that'd be my guess for the France and Sweden games, and dependent how much we're needing the points it might be Jones or Smalling for Ukraine (just to give them a run out).

[eFestivals]

Smalling not in squad, injured.

ahh, that explains why I was suddenly thinking there were more centre backs than i'd thought.

And I'd forgotten about Jags. kaosmark2 is prolly more right with him being in line before Jones to play centre back, even if he doesn't displace Terry (which I don't think he will).

[thetime]

There could be a few retirements after the euros, which can't come quick enough..

Can see likes of Terry, lamps, Rio, Cole maybe calling it a day.